Things I Don't Understand

[J.C.]

Actually, I wasn't going to quote Scripture regardless of how you answered my question, nor would I endlessly debate you on some of the topic on these boards. But considering that you answered "Yes" to my question about being a good person, I would like to ask another. Now please do not answer if it is too personal, but have you ever told a lie? Before, or if you answer, please realize that I am not try to point a finger at you, but I am mere wanting to know. Also, I am being completely serious about this enquiry, rather than trying to appear to insult your intelligence

[Christian]

Then I will......

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,

6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

emeraldgirl I am truly sorry that your faith is such a heavy burden to you.

Christ's cross was probably a little heavier though I'd imagine.

How easily we forget that when we feel we are the center of our universes and owed a full explanation from God.

I hope you find your answers

in Christ,

-CC-

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Strong atheist, weak atheist, intermediate atheist.

Either you believe in God or you do not. In which case you may be some kind of Theist and in the best case a Christian.

emraldgirl,

Do not be confused by the classifications of atheists. That is what it is designed to do. As well the classifications of Christians. They too are designed to confuse. The Word as I'm sure you know states it this way;

That if someone should confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe with their heart that God has raised Him from the dead. That person is Saved.

So lay aside all the particulars and start from there. That is where the relationship starts.

Personally I came here as a confused Catholic. I knew there was something more deeper about my Faith than just the puddle of Religiousity. I am not condemning all Catholics either. Yet for me it was very shallow. I knew who Christ was and I even confessed Him to be Ressurected. However I did not know Him. I knew a Religion that made all the right statements about Him. Yet it never stuck. There was no relationship with Him. Therefore no change of heart either.

Then when I came here I heard all kind and manner of people thrusting down my Church. I had to struggle through this. I knew it was not the Church I attended which had saved me. It was indeed Christ. It was not the creeds I spoke forth. It was Christ. It was not how often I prayed nor how often I read the Word. Neither how much I understood. Although these things are important and I do not discount them.

What became readily evident to me was the people who understood the most, the people who showed forth the most of Christ, The people who were actually making an impact in the world. They were the people who Trusted God and walked with Him in a deep and abiding relationship. They simply Love Jesus and what He has done for them.

I realized that they knew nothing more about these same kind of questions that I had and you now ask. It didn't bother them at all. I was simply amazed. Stunned that it didn't bother them at all. A good friend of mine after I queried him on several deep probing questions simply said," I really don't know Dave, You know I don't have all the answers either." The difference though when they didn't have the answers was that they simply Trusted God in His due time to answer.

We all see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. We know in part, yet one day we shall know even as we are known. It's why the part about believing in ones heart that God raised Him from the dead is important. It is our Blessed Hope.

As it stands the Hopeless must cling to meaningless things like half an atheist, 1/4% an atheist, etc... If they ever stare through the glass half darkly? They will see their Hoplessness staring right back at them.

Am I being rough on our atheist friends. Naw! They need to hear it.

What is our Hope if not Ressurection from the death we all face. Eternal seperation from God is no game. Even as it stands those seperated from Him currently in this world must play semantics to make their hoplessness make sense. They too know the Terror of the Night. That 3 AM awakening that comes and abides. It asks questions in the night. Foreboding questions. When I first got Saved. It would come and try to misplace Trust. It would say," What if it isn't True, What if your not Saved? Will you really spend eternity in paradise?" Then the pulse quickens and sweat breaks out. However you must assure it that it's True, it's True. Jesus Christ died for my sins on a Cross and was Raised from the dead according to Gods Word and Will. That I know Him personally and that He has defeated this foe.

The foreboding and maddening question that haunts the atheist is the same one that haunts even the Christian, "What if this is all there really is?" The difference is the Christian is armed with the Truth. With knowledge of the Living God and His Word. With the Love of Christ which abideth forever. He has Hope, Blessed Hope.

When all the forces of evil are gathered against the Christian, when they are paralyzing his mind and heart with fear. When the spector of illness, fear, maybe death and doubt haunt the doorway of his heart. He can answer, " How Great is my God, sing with me, How great is my God, All will see, How great, How great is my God. He wraps Himself in Light, darkness tries to Hide, it trembles at His voice, it trembles at His voice, How Great is my God...." Then he can begin to dance the dance of freedom.

Then the darkness flee's as it is just you and God and that's all it is ever going to be about. Just you and God Loving each other. Even in the grips of the darkest moments of life. To say," that though he may slay me, I will sing forth His praises because I have a Hope and it is what I am looking forward too." Then the gilded cage of this world will fall down before your eyes displaying it's rusting, hulking, foreboding chains of darkness. As Jesus comes in and sits awhile with you. You'll look down and see those chains weren't so strong after all. In His Light they are actually like sewing string they lay broken and tattered at your feet in the presence of His Majesty.

The you realize. It's going to be all right. You don't have to play semantics. Your not a Baptsist, a Catholic, or even a Messianic Jew. Your a child of God. Loved, cherished right where you are at. Questions and all. The questions begin to melt away too. Just you and Jesus.

Go and tell Him of your confusion, go and tell Him of your Love. He's marvelous. That is why I say that He is all anyone could have ever wanted. He's all anyone ever needed. He's alltogether Lovely and Worth to be praised.

The Lord is dancing over you today dear emeraldgirl. He's dancing over you, waving a banner and setting up a standard and it's too Lovely for Words. Go and sit awhile with Him. Let Him stroke your brow, and tell you how much He Loves you.

Footnote; I'm no longer semantically challenged either. I don't call myself anything other than a Christian a child of God by the magnificient Grace of our Lord. Loved by God.

Peace,

Dave

[Arthur Durnan]

First off, SecondEve, you'd be well advised to change your monicker. The FirstEve left a lot to be desired, yes? Why follow in HER train? HALP! Second, The Creator-God - without consulting us for advice - purposely chose to reveal Himself in three distinct personalities, Father, Son & Holy Spirit. He didn't ask us to critique His decision. Only to love & obey Him. Should the Chatty-Kathy Doll critique its master? Hardly. Should the passenger critique the pilot? Hardly. Should the patient critique the surgeon? Not if we wish to live and not die. Because the Creator-God first loved us, we love Him too.

Those who feel there is "no God" are not quite "in full flight." They themselves offer us an inert, blind & mindless god called Chance as explanation for the universe. Where might god Chance live? In what Miilky Way? When you say "no God," what investigative credentials do you offer? Are you just back from Io and Ganymede....in fact, from every part of the universe which journey might give you some right to positively assert "There is no God. I didn't find One!" Be still, my beating heart, be still.....and come to Jesus with faith believing.....and LIVE!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[emeraldgirl]

Now please do not answer if it is too personal, but have you ever told a lie?

I'm positive I've told many; the barefaced variety to spare trouble, the half-truth to obscure facts and the type for entertainment value, like saying my name was "Heather" when it was something else entirely.

Do not be confused by the classifications of atheists. That is what it is designed to do. As well the classifications of Christians. They too are designed to confuse. The Word as I'm sure you know states it this way;

Neither concerns me much. The only reason I'm slow to say, "I'm a Christian." is because I know someone like CC can't wait to tell me that I'm not a "real" Christian, even with no insight into my heart or any clue of my life experiences. I don't want to horrify anyone who thinks I'm misusing the identity of "Christian". I know what I believe (well, mostly! ). I'm also not to proud to admit the things I don't believe.

What became readily evident to me was the people who understood the most, the people who showed forth the most of Christ, The people who were actually making an impact in the world. They were the people who Trusted God and walked with Him in a deep and abiding relationship. They simply Love Jesus and what He has done for them.

I realized that they knew nothing more about these same kind of questions that I had and you now ask. It didn't bother them at all. blink.gif I was simply amazed. Stunned that it didn't bother them at all. A good friend of mine after I queried him on several deep probing questions simply said," I really don't know Dave, You know I don't have all the answers either." The difference though when they didn't have the answers was that they simply Trusted God in His due time to answer.

But see, here's what bothers me, Dave. I'll try to make this concise, but here's my essential history in the faith:

* Born into a devout Christian family; raised in the faith. As a child, made whatever a child's committment to Jesus entails, on many occassions, too, just to make sure.

* As a teen (maybe 15?), really wanted to be a Christian in the total sense, since I now had a more mature understanding of what that meant. So I "recommitted" to Christ.

* By the end of my teens, though, I was becoming plagued by questions. Many of them are the same questions I have again - or still - whichever. This quest for a faith I could believe in and an understanding of God I could really be passionate about lasted throughout my 20's. I was pretty close to atheism, really, with a lot of New Age kind of thinking, very interested in mental skills, like meditation.

* At the end of my 20's, on Easter Sunday when I was 29, I had been troubled by a problem for some time and it really *clicked* to me what it really meant to Trust God. I realized I didn't need all the answers, I could just Trust God. I didn't have to be able to change other people, I could just Trust God. His will had to be better than mine; that's the whole premise behind the faith. So, I went for it. Either I "really" became a Christian for the first time, or I "recommitted" - really, I never have figured that out, but it was moot anyway. I was a Child of God and man, I was jazzed! What could be better? I wanted what God wanted; what a relief! I didn't have to control the universe and I didn't have to know the unknowable! I had not the slightest doubt about where I stood - I was a Christian, all the way.

* When my baby died in 2003, I tried to understand it all through the Christian faith. Man, did I ever try. But there is no "reason" that I can accept. And after that, all the questions just slowly re-presented themselves. Oh, and an important part of the picture is that the Christians I most expected to be my greatest comfort were by and large the most hurtful, betraying people in my circle. Not every one of them, mind you, but the ones who were closest to me, who have been Christians for ages. The kindest person who really stuck by me (other than my husband) was a nominal Christian with a simple God-belief. In some ways, I'm sure my disappointments over my Christian "friends" meshed into my disappointments in God in general, so that it's hard to separate the two. Are these the representatives of Christ? Why, then, are they so hurtful?

So, the point of that wordy history is this: If I'm not "really" a Christian after believing at least twice that I really was, if I'm not "really" a Christian after my total attempt to be one, than what hope would anyone have? See what I mean? Maybe when you suffer your next (or your first) shattering experience, you will doubt, too. (That's not meant as a taunt; it's to illustrate how none of us could really be sure of our faith.)

I spent some time reading at a site for ex-Christians. I didn't like reading there because of the derisions of Jesus and God, but at the same time, I could see myself all over some of the testimonies there. Raised in the faith. Chronic doubts. Anguished because their whole life is tied to Christianity. Can't get resolution to their answers anywhere. So eventually, they just can it and become a Deist or an Atheist.

The foreboding and maddening question that haunts the atheist is the same one that haunts even the Christian, "What if this is all there really is?"

Actually, I tend to care more about Christianity as it applies to this life. The afterlife is not really even interesting to me, except that I hope to see my daughter again some day. But, I also don't look forward to it in the way I look forward to something I concretely know is probably going to happen, like a vacation or whatever. I hope there's a Heaven, because this life is short, hard and uncertain, but I also know that cultures for time eternal have promised an afterlife. We laugh at the ancient Egyptians, who buried their dead with supplies they were expected to need in the next world. But what is so funny about it, when what we believe is equally unpredictable? Maybe I'm just engaging in a wonderful fantasy about seeing my daughter one day when the cold, hard truth is that her life was over before it really started and that's all. I hope there are golden streets where I can walk with her; I actively dream it, but maybe it is just all a dream.

That's all for now. Responsibilities calling.

[J.C.]

Thank you for your honesty, Emeraldgirl. We have all lied at some point in our lives, in many different ways. But regardless how or when, or for whatever motivation, lying to someone still makes us what?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

emeraldgirl;

* When my baby died in 2003, I tried to understand it all through the Christian faith. Man, did I ever try. But there is no "reason" that I can accept. And after that, all the questions just slowly re-presented themselves. Oh, and an important part of the picture is that the Christians I most expected to be my greatest comfort were by and large the most hurtful, betraying people in my circle. Not every one of them, mind you, but the ones who were closest to me, who have been Christians for ages. The kindest person who really stuck by me (other than my husband) was a nominal Christian with a simple God-belief. In some ways, I'm sure my disappointments over my Christian "friends" meshed into my disappointments in God in general, so that it's hard to separate the two. Are these the representatives of Christ? Why, then, are they so hurtful?

So, the point of that wordy history is this: If I'm not "really" a Christian after believing at least twice that I really was, if I'm not "really" a Christian after my total attempt to be one, than what hope would anyone have? See what I mean? Maybe when you suffer your next (or your first) shattering experience, you will doubt, too. (That's not meant as a taunt; it's to illustrate how none of us could really be sure of our faith.)

I am so sorry. I am so sorry that Christians hurt you the most. Thank God for His Grace. I too have been associated with unwise Christians. Serving here lends itself to all kinds of things and accusations you would not believe, from Christians. However the Lord has asked us to forgive them and move forward. If we forgive them and they do nothing on their part? The onus is on them, yet we are right with God. It sounds like you have done this.

I would no sooner Judge you sister. It is Grace that has taught me this. God forgave me even when I didn't deserve it. God Loved me when no one else found me lovely.

I believe you sister and I believe that you are Saved despite the fact that you have some questions and have been and are in a tight spot. The enemy would love to destroy you from being effective for your Faith. For you King. However I want you to know, you are effective, you are Ministering to me. Reminding me of whom we all are.

There are Lovely words I could try to post and type. There are Lovely things I could try to say, and God has madee me a wordsmith, He has Blessed me this way. Yet the thing I would most like to do is just sit and hold your hand and cry a little with you.

Shift your focus sister. Stop looking at the wind and the waves. Look at the One who controls them.

So, the point of that wordy history is this: If I'm not "really" a Christian after believing at least twice that I really was, if I'm not "really" a Christian after my total attempt to be one, than what hope would anyone have? See what I mean? Maybe when you suffer your next (or your first) shattering experience, you will doubt, too. (That's not meant as a taunt; it's to illustrate how none of us could really be sure of our faith.)

Oh sister, write to me some time via PM and I will tell you a tale about my walk. I sometimes get so mad at the Preachers who tell me prosperity is what God wants for me. They tell everyone they can live in a beautiful House free from tragedy and have a Million bucks in the bank because this is what God wants. I believe God wants the best for us too. However our idea of the best is tainted with sin.

I want to share with you an experience right after I got really Saved. My wife was pregnant and we didn't know it. She had a Tubal pregnancy and we didn't know it. She ruptured and bled out for 3 days. Until she became faint. She was told by the Doctors to just rest after bleeding for 3 days until she could get to her appointment. You see, we didn't know she was pregnant. After collapsing in the Hospital where she was working from lack of Blood. I was called. God was with me up unto and prior for like 3 days and I could not figure out why. I had just switched Churches and God was walking very closely with me. I get this call and rush to the Hospital because this was a real emergency. My wife was newly Saved just like 3 weeks. She nearly died on the Operating Table. I was in the Chapel at the Hospital and just really wanting to see God. I was down on my knee's and crying because they told me she might not make it. Here I was this Dad of 2 with a Part Time job and my wife has done lost a baby and she might die. I can't tell you how I felt . Emotions were rushing in on me and doubt was rasing it's head. I'm down on my knees and crying. The Hospital Chaplain comes in. I turn and look at him weeping and he grabs his coat out of the closet and turns and leaves. Now I'm like, "It's just you and me Jesus and though you may slay me, I will praise your name. I will praise your name." The door opens behind me and I turn to see. My Pastor, My new crazy rainbow wig, hole in his shorts, flip flop wearing Pastor has found me. He and I embrace and we hug and we weep. We pray and I am so grateful to God. I prayed that someone would come that God would come. He did, He reached down through this Pastor and Blessed me. I Love this Pastor and stand behind him, yet it was God who worked through him.

We went to the Operating Room and my wife was being prepped. We prayed on the Team of Doctors. Afterwards the Doctor told us. Today is a Good day. Today fortune has smiled upon us. Tomorrow would have been a bad day. A day of grief.

That close, that cloes. Yet God had another plan.

Tragedy, yes I lost a child a life was there and was gone. yet God had other plans.

A year later with a 50% less chance to have a child my wife winds up pregnant. Miracle of miracles. My son is here and a year old. he is a Blessing. he ministers to folks. What the enemy had stolen, God returned ten fold. My wife, she's so faithful now even through all of that. Even through the fear of this second pregnancy. She was fearful all the way through it.

What if, what if, what if?

However she went through this act of faith and walked it out.

Is everything rosey and peachy in my life today? Not at all. Not as I would like it. As I said , write to me and I will tell you a tale of of a long hard climb.

Yet what I am learning is this;

2Ti

[nebula]

Emeralgirl -

There are times when I wish I could just sit and have a chat with someone over things rather than so distant and rather impersonal over the internet like this.

Although my walk with the Lord has been different than yours, I can appreciate the struggle.

At this point, the best I can do is to share the lyrics of some songs that have ministered to me through my confusions and doubts. Unfortunately, they lose something without the music, but I hope the message comes across anyway.

"Ramah" - by Lamb

Ramah - Benjamite city,

I hear you cry, I hear you cry.

Ramah - I hear you lamentation,

Crying, "Help me, somebody Help me!"

Cannot I console you?

Wipe away the tears from your eyes?

There's a new day coming,

The prophets tell us why.

Rachel - beloved wife of Jacob,

I hear you cry, I hear you cry,

Rachel - weeping for your children,

Why did they die? Why did they die?

Immanuel, promised seed of David,

When will you come?

When will you come?

Immanuel, you'll bear the sins of many,

And from the dead arise,

And from the dead arise.

When will you console us?

Wipe away the tears from our eyes?

When will you return and,

Fulfill your prophet's cry?

Immanuel - Immanuel - Immanuel

Sorrow and sighing shall flee away,

Never to return no more,

Never will forget you.

"You Never Change" - by Harvest

So many times in my life

I thought it was You but I was mistaken

So many things in my life

I thought were from You but now they've been taken

Through the confusion

The times of defeat

The struggle that always remains

No matter how hopeless and dark it may seem

You never change

So many times in my life

Decisions I made seemed right at the moment

So many times in my life

Things that things that I said were better unspoken

Through all the seasons

The years of my life

The struggles that always remain

No matter the struggle the heartache the strife

You never change

So many times in my life

Promises made lie shattered and broken

So many times in my life

I've run away, I've stumbled and fallen

You never change

You never change

"Hard To Get" - by Rich Mullins

You who live in heaven

Hear the prayers of those of us who live on earth

Who are afraid of being left by those we love

And who get hardened by the hurt

Do you remember when You lived down here where we all scrape

To find the faith to ask for daily bread?

Did You forget about us after You had flown away?

Well I memorized every word You said

Still I'm so scared, I'm holding my breath

While You're up there just playing hard to get

You who live in radiance

Hear the prayers of those of us who live in skin

We have a love that's not as patient as Yours was

Still we do love now and then

Did You ever know loneliness?

Did You ever know need?

Do You remember just how long a night can get?

When You were barely holding on

And Your friends fall asleep

And don't see the blood that's running in Your sweat

Will those who mourn be left uncomforted?

While You're up there just playing hard to get?

And I know you bore our sorrows

And I know you feel our pain

And I know it would not hurt any less

Even if it could be explained

And I know that I am only lashing out

At the One who loves me most

And after I figured this, somehow

All I really need to know

Is if You who live in eternity

Hear the prayers of those of us who live in time?

We can't see what's ahead

And we can not get free of what we've left behind

I'm reeling from these voices that keep screaming in my ears

All the words of shame and doubt, blame and regret

I can't see how You're leading me unless You've led me here

Where I'm lost enough to let myself be led

And so You've been here all along I guess

It's just Your ways and You are just plain hard to get

[emeraldgirl]

Thank you Dave, and nebula. Dave, I'm so sorry for your loss and fright.

But regardless how or when, or for whatever motivation, lying to someone still makes us what?

I suppose you are trying to have me say "a liar", but what is the point?

[ted]

This, I think, is the best, most positively endearing thread I have ever had the pleasure to read through in my years. In fact, if I was to have to choose just one thread to display who God was and to demonstrate His love, it would be this one.

Christians and non-believers alike should pay attention to what is going on in this thread. We say we want proof or some sort of sign? Well, here it stands, right here on our screens.

All we have to do is see it for what it is.

Please, continue....

t.