Smalcald Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Recently we have been having a discussion about where faith comes from, how do we come to faith? This has been contentious and I think it is important to realize that there are different theological positions on this point, but in the end as long as we all cling to faith alone in Christ as Savior and nothing else, we will all end up in the same place. Some feel that human beings being dead in trespasses and sins, cannot will themselves to believe, that everything that brings us to faith even our will to have faith, is only from God. Thus all of our faith is created by a supernatural event of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. Thus the terms faith alone and grace alone. Meaning that our belief in Christ as Lord and Savior, is not a decision we could make on our own, but is also a work of God, as dead men can't rouse themselves. I am in this camp. This was also Luther's position. In this camp, you can only deny Christ that is the only real power we have, as there is nothing good in us, the only good inside of a human being flows from faith in Christ. Anything done in unbelief is sin. Others believe that a human must by their own power and efforts accept Christ, that faith is a human decision that I have made. Some in this camp (although not all) also believe that some human beings are more likely to believe in Christ because of who they are their own morals their own humility etc. I would like to look at scripture in this regard and have a polite discussion concerning this issue. I have no illusions that this might go south, if so the moderators should go ahead and close the topic. But it is an interesting topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2006 Recently we have been having a discussion about where faith comes from, how do we come to faith? This has been contentious and I think it is important to realize that there are different theological positions on this point, but in the end as long as we all cling to faith alone in Christ as Savior and nothing else, we will all end up in the same place. Some feel that human beings being dead in trespasses and sins, cannot will themselves to believe, that everything that brings us to faith even our will to have faith, is only from God. Thus all of our faith is created by a supernatural event of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. Thus the terms faith alone and grace alone. Meaning that our belief in Christ as Lord and Savior, is not a decision we could make on our own, but is also a work of God, as dead men can't rouse themselves. I am in this camp. This was also Luther's position. In this camp, you can only deny Christ that is the only real power we have, as there is nothing good in us, the only good inside of a human being flows from faith in Christ. Anything done in unbelief is sin. Others believe that a human must by their own power and efforts accept Christ, that faith is a human decision that I have made. Some in this camp (although not all) also believe that some human beings are more likely to believe in Christ because of who they are their own morals their own humility etc. I would like to look at scripture in this regard and have a polite discussion concerning this issue. I have no illusions that this might go south, if so the moderators should go ahead and close the topic. But it is an interesting topic. This is also the position of Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Edwards and most important theologians in addition to Luther. I think the easiest to understand presentation on this was done by R.C. Sproul in his Chosen by God. Although he is Reformed and not Lutheran I thought it was excellent as a primer. Before I listened to that I thought the whole concept of what you are bringing up was strange and unbiblical. I would highly recommend it. Decision theology is a relatively new invention in the history of the church and flows from the Revivalist movement of the 1800's. What many evangelicals understand as biblical soteriology nowadays is quite new. Many are surprised to learn that. Good luck on keeping it civil Smalcald! I will check in later tonight and see how this is going. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Recently we have been having a discussion about where faith comes from, how do we come to faith? This has been contentious and I think it is important to realize that there are different theological positions on this point, but in the end as long as we all cling to faith alone in Christ as Savior and nothing else, we will all end up in the same place. Some feel that human beings being dead in trespasses and sins, cannot will themselves to believe, that everything that brings us to faith even our will to have faith, is only from God. Thus all of our faith is created by a supernatural event of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. Thus the terms faith alone and grace alone. Meaning that our belief in Christ as Lord and Savior, is not a decision we could make on our own, but is also a work of God, as dead men can't rouse themselves. I am in this camp. This was also Luther's position. In this camp, you can only deny Christ that is the only real power we have, as there is nothing good in us, the only good inside of a human being flows from faith in Christ. Anything done in unbelief is sin. Others believe that a human must by their own power and efforts accept Christ, that faith is a human decision that I have made. Some in this camp (although not all) also believe that some human beings are more likely to believe in Christ because of who they are their own morals their own humility etc. I would like to look at scripture in this regard and have a polite discussion concerning this issue. I have no illusions that this might go south, if so the moderators should go ahead and close the topic. But it is an interesting topic. This is also the position of Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Edwards and most important theologians in addition to Luther. I think the easiest to understand presentation on this was done by R.C. Sproul in his Chosen by God. Although he is Reformed and not Lutheran I thought it was excellent as a primer. Before I listened to that I thought the whole concept of what you are bringing up was strange and unbiblical. I would highly recommend it. Decision theology is a relatively new invention in the history of the church and flows from the Revivalist movement of the 1800's. What many evangelicals understand as biblical soteriology nowadays is quite new. Many are surprised to learn that. Good luck on keeping it civil Smalcald! I will check in later tonight and see how this is going. sw It is interesting, but I do think it is hard concept sometimes, particularly if you have been taught one particular position for your entire life. For me it was a matter of really letting go, but that letting go was very very helpful. Always wanting to hold something back, to just take a little credit is very normal, and I think very American, I had a very hard time with it, I couldn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakota190 Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 640 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/14/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2006 easy, no real debate needed. they both come from God. we all know salvation came from God, through the suffering and death of Jesus, on the cross. Faith is given to us by God. man can't do it himself. Romans, ch; 10, v-17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." God gave us his word, the scriptures. he draws us to himself, by the Holy Spirit, he plants a desire for himself in our hearts. he plants a desire for his word, within us. if or when we answer his call and hear his word, God, through his gifts to us, implants the faith necessary, to come to him, in worship and praise as we accept him as our savior. man through his efforts, can't approach God. the only action of man that will help him to approach God, is his humility and submission, to Jesus. God, must call us to him, first. first corinthians, ch;1 v-9, God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his son, Jesus Christ our Lord. well, that verse pretty well proves that point, doesn't it. the answer is God!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Indeed the answer is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abigailwc Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/08/1964 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Yes, it is God who calls us. It is God who gives us faith. Before we become Children of God, we have no desire to know Him personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark777 Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 416 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2006 Hello everyone, I also believe that everything comes from God. I believe the problem here is egotism - and I mean that across the board. We think our thoughts are our own - that we are masters of ourselves - that we somehow control ourselves and our world. When in fact we are controlled by culture, nature, and the mode of sin that is the glue of culture and nature. I do not believe in free will. I believe that, at first we are controlled completely by sin. As Smalcald has said - how can dead men rouse themselves? They can't. Left to our own devices, we are dead men on the way to judgement. God has seen fit to offer us salvation through Jesus Christ. I believe this gift is equally open to all men. I believe that, through Jesus Christ, God is drawing all men to himself. In this situation, there arises a true decision for each person. But the ability to perform this act of will is provided by God. God makes an openning in our lives where Christ approaches us and gives us the ability to accept or reject Him. When we reject Him He moves away and we are condemned. When we accept Him we are taken and sealed as His property. He does with us as He wills not as we will. We are a creation of God - no more no less. He controls and owns the world and everything in it - including every one of us. We are only endowed with what He has furnished. Our knowledge, our wisdom, our abilities are all from Him. I feel that any other opinion comes from egotism. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 13, 2006 (edited) I would like to look at scripture in this regard and have a polite discussion concerning this issue. I have no illusions that this might go south, if so the moderators should go ahead and close the topic. But it is an interesting topic. Keeping it polite? How about just keeping it on topic! OK. seriously. . . . Others believe that a human must by their own power and efforts accept Christ, that faith is a human decision that I have made. Some in this camp (although not all) also believe that some human beings are more likely to believe in Christ because of who they are their own morals their own humility etc. Hmmm . . . I wouldn't call this an accurate portrayal of what those of us on the other side of the previous debate have been saying. Of course "no one can come to [Jesus] unless the Father draws him." (John 6:44) We are in agreement on where faith comes from. Where we have been disagreeing is on choosing to accept that faith or not. If I understand you correctly, there is no saying, "Yes," to Christ, only "No." We disagree in that there is either saying, "Yes," or "No," but not just the one. The problem presented with "automatic faith" with no choice in saying, "Yes," is that you can the get away with not confessing, repenting, etc. There is no actual point of having moved from darkness into light. There is no point you can say you have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It's all very vague. I don't have time to dig up the Scriptures on this, but I hope I can clarify the other side of the argument a little better. **** [Edit] Wait, I needed to come back - I wasn't happy with how I tried to say things above. We all agree that faith comes from God. So, that isn't an issue. The issue is in if we say, "Yes" to that faith. Many people grow up in church, get baptised as infants, tak communion at the proper age, get confirmed at the proper age, repeat the corporate prayer during the service, take communion . . . Yet outsie of the religious form on Sunday there is nothing in their lives to indicate their religion is anything more than "just what you do." My mother was this way. She learned otherwise, though. Oddly enough, it was through the people at the Lutheran church I was at, maybe even the pastor, that she actually had to make a decision for Jesus and enter into His salvation. She has testified that doing so was a definite changing point in her life. This is an example of what I am referring to. Salvation isn't something that is "just there." It is something that happens. Even John Bunyun in The Pilgrim's Progress knew this. Pilgrim, the main character, had a distinct moment iin time where he came to the cross. It was at this point that the heavy burden stuck to his back finally fell off. In the same way, there is a point in time we need to come to the cross. Sure, we need to seek continual cleansing from the sin that besets us, just the same as we continually need to take a shower from the daily sweat and grim that accumulates on us. This is a different topic, however. We are talking about how you go from being a lost sinner to being saved in the first place. What we are saying is that we agree we can only say yes if God has given us this ability, but we still have to say yes, there is no osmosis of salvation. Edited July 13, 2006 by nebula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 Hmmm . . . I wouldn't call this an accurate portrayal of what those of us on the other side of the previous debate have been saying. Yeah, I realize that, which is one of the reason's I identified myself with the other camp on this, I was hoping you could flesh out a more accurate portrayal? Yet outsie of the religious form on Sunday there is nothing in their lives to indicate their religion is anything more than "just what you do." My mother was this way. She learned otherwise, though. Oddly enough, it was through the people at the Lutheran church I was at, maybe even the pastor, that she actually had to make a decision for Jesus and enter into His salvation. She has testified that doing so was a definite changing point in her life. You know I don't disagree with the point you are getting at here. The idea that we can just go through the motions is an implicit danger in all of the Christian faith, but I think even more so in liturgical Christian Churches, I have seen it, I have known it, and I realize that danger. Now I would also agree about the yes, and needing a public profession of faith, in fact we are called to confess with our mouths, AND believe with our heart, both things. I would disagree on where the yes comes from. The yes is good, it is true faith, and thus I would say it could come only from God and by the movement of the Holy Spirit. I would also say that we need to say yes every day that we should always be confessing with our mouths that Christ is our Savior. From the outside it will look the same though, it will look like YOU are making a commitment and choice, and indeed you are, it is just that the you is no longer YOU at that point, but the Holy Spirit. Do you see what I mean? The problem presented with "automatic faith" with no choice in saying, "Yes," is that you can the get away with not confessing, repenting, etc. There is no actual point of having moved from darkness into light. There is no point you can say you have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It's all very vague. On this I would say that we cannot get away without confessing and repenting, as if we do not do those things we do not have faith. I would disagree with the problem of having a point though or of even needing a point. To me that idea would indicate a special addition to faith another requirement added onto, simply having faith in Christ alone. I know that I have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit as I have faith in Christ, indeed it is a mystery and IS vague. You know though I have also stood up at a Holiness Church and dedicated my Life to Christ, testified, etc. I think this was real, it was the Holy Spirit no doubt, however I think that it was always there, from childhood frankly. Up to that point I had been running away from Christ. So I don't deny born again experiences, I just interpret them differently than others probably do, and I do not think that they are any sort of requirement for faith in Christ, being born again IS a requirement, but having a point in time experience is not. Luther described faith as a fish being caught in a net. At first the fish is in the net, but is still in the water and, in fact at first. it does not even know the net is around it, but the net begins to tighten, the fish begins to struggle against the net, this is our new life and our struggle with the flesh, finally the fish is pulled out of the water onto the boat, this is when we die and meet Christ in heaven. Faith for me has been like that, well not the dying part, but hopefully that is on the horizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 13, 2006 So what is it we are disagreeing over? That there is a point I time when you become born again, as an actual event? Or that the struggle is over when you actually say yes to the Lord and cease the struggle against Him? Or is it the perception of making a choice for God verses only being capable of chosing no? I'm getting confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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