rapture

[Ovedya]

...and causes nothing but discord in the body of Christ, which is one of the seven things the Lord hates.

Ah! So the Lord hates discord.

Seems to me that there's a lot more discord over the two positions themselves than over those who take either side. So then logically we should seek to be one with one another regardless of either doctrinal position. I have never read anywhere in Scripture that being either a pre-tribulationist or a post-tribulationist secures ones place in the heavenlies, or that being either secures a non-stop train to the lake of fire. However, I do know that the Lord despises our divisions over these sorts of issues.

Quite a little pickle, eh?

[Ovedya]

Also if you know the trib is coming you can prepare yourself mentally,emotionly and spiritualy but satan wants to keep us unaware and unprepared that is why he created this false teaching.

I don't believe this at all. I think that bickering over such issues is what prevents the saints from being prepared. Remember that the Lord will not return until the Bride has made herself ready. That's not the individual saints, brother, that's the entire Body of Christ, the church. The church will never be prepared so long as we are divided insignificant doctrinal lines.

In terms of individual preparedness "mentally, emotionally, and spiritually,' first, there is no such thing. The saint's being prepared has nothing to do with mental or emotional preparation. It has everything to do with having our vessels filled with the abundance of the Spirit (Matt. 25:1-13). The Lord commands us to be prepared at all times, not merely at the last minute when we think he might arrive.

This is a little off subject ,but God is also going to prune those that are not ready so that those that are can grow and mature,soooo get ready.

The truth of the post trib rapture is a very important issue God want his people to know.

There are many false doctrines being taught in our churches but pretrib is one of the most dangerous,''not the most dangerous'' but one of them.

Please prove from Scripture that the current doctrine of post-trib rapture is "a very important issue God want his people to know."

Because logic tells me that if God wanted His saints to be really clear about it, He would have made it really clear in the Scriptures.

That is unless you believe that God was intentionally vague about the rapture...

Gods word makes it abundently clear sadly many ''christians'' refuse to accept the clear common since reading of scripture because one it is not what they have learned their whole life #2 they are scared to accept the truth of being here for the trib.

1st tm 2:4 God wants all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Here is a 6 point proof for post trib using nothing but scripture.#1 1st thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. #2 matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.#3 1st cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.#4 luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked(which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10. #5 john 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).#6 rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs aswell as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection therefore the pretrib rapture aswell as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.

People dont get it because they dont want to,the bible can not be any more clear.

I understand that you are merely repeating your "6-point proof" of post-trib but, respectuflly, that's not what I asked for.

You equated pre-trib doctrine with evil and have done all but claim it's a doctrine of demons here.

I would like evidence from Scripture that evidences your claim that the pre-trib doctrine is "a very important issue God want his people to know."

[eric]

Good post, Toni. I dot recall that anybody claims to be post trib is at logger heads with the other camp in as much as it is a matter of salvation, It is the heresy behind the claim of secret rapture, which gives new christians false hope of the end times.

I will stop posting on these threads when some one can show me in the bible that a rapture precedes the time of tribulation. It is false teaching that cant be backed with scripture.... so it's heresy.

[Isa]

There are many scriptures that explain the rapture of the saints but people have blinkers on and they don't see the whole picture only that what has been bashed down their throats from others.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

When this verse is mentioned is there any mention of judgment of the wicked? No

The only thing mentioned is of those who believe in Christ are caught up (taken away) first those who died believing and then those who are alive who will be changed in the twinkling of the eye. They will meet each other in the air to be with Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

[Isa]

There are many scriptures that explain the rapture of the saints but people have blinkers on and they don't see the whole picture only that what has been bashed down their throats from others.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

When this verse is mentioned is there any mention of judgment of the wicked? No

The only thing mentioned is of those who believe in Christ are caught up (taken away) first those who died believing and then those who are alive who will be changed in the twinkling of the eye. They will meet each other in the air to be with Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

[Massorite]

The Rapture revelation 4:1(The open DOOR) after the Rapture the seals etc. Is a Time of Tribulation, and its wise to enter the The open DOOR Rapture.

(Watch ye) therefore,

Bride of Christ

Revelation 3:10

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the (hour (Greek, hora- season) of (temptation (Greek, peirasmos- adversity or tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The prerequisite to receiving the promise in this scripture is to patiently keep His Word or put another way,to be a consistent doer of the Word,full of faith!

There are many wonderful benefits to being the Bride, but the one that is mentioned in Revelation 3:10 certainly will be a welcome blessing.

The word From in Greek is as"out of" (Greek word, ek)Strong's Number: 1537 out of,away from

Jesus promises to keep us "from" or as the Greek word reads, "out of " the season of tribulation that is about to come upon the whole world to try all those that are left behind to dwell upon the earth.

-----------------------------------------------------

(36Watch ye) therefore,

worthy to (escape) all these things that shall come to pass,

(escape)as Rapture

Luke 21:34-36

(And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares)

35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

(36Watch ye) therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

king Jesus Christ prophetically warned, Take heed to yourselves, lest at anytime your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting (overindulgence)and drunkenness, and the cares of this life, so that day come upon you unawares.(Watch ye) therefore, and (pray always) that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things .

(Luke 21:34-36) Here, in praying always, it is the Christians that are instructed to be sober,and not to be overtaken with overindulgence and the cares of this life,not just the unbeliever (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8) First, note that unbelievers do not believe.

Secondly, unbelievers do not pray,and Worship God! nor will they pray always,and Watch which is an explicit Christian directive for saved Christians to be Watching in preparation for King Jesus Christ! Lest That Day overtake them unawares.

We must continue to share,and teach the Powerful Gospel with anyone,and everyone at all Times!

One must remember to Pray the Back sliders, Lukewarm, and unbelievers Wake up(Romans 13:11) get Saved, and abide in King Jesus Christ!

Also we must continue to share, and teach that the Christians need to (Wake up) (Watch)and (Abide) in our wonderful King Jesus Christ!

One must walk with God at all Times! Abide, Dabaq(Hebrew)

Rapture Prophecy(Please Read Rapture of His Bride) on Rapture Prophecy

http://www.raptureprophecy.com

Watching for our Blessed Hope, Jesus Christ to Rapture us to the New Jerusalem(Heaven) (Blessed) are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find (watching:) as shared in Proverbs 8:34,Luke 12:37,and Revelation 16:15 We are told many Times in the Bible to WATCH, and Notice Revelation 3:3 Shares those who are not Watching, He will come like a Thief. Now is the Time to Watch for King Jesus Christ, and Love his Appearing!Infact if you Love his Appearing you will receive a Special Crown! 2 Timothy 4:8

[Isa]

There are many scriptures that explain the rapture of the saints but people have blinkers on and they don't see the whole picture only that what has been bashed down their throats from others.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

When this verse is mentioned is there any mention of judgment of the wicked? No

The only thing mentioned is of those who believe in Christ are caught up (taken away) first those who died believing and then those who are alive who will be changed in the twinkling of the eye. They will meet each other in the air to be with Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

[Isa]

Isa

At what point in Revelation is the end of the tribulation?

The tribulation ends for the saints at the first Resurrection of the righteous dead in Christ immediately followed by those of us who are alive and remain, when we will be suddenly changed in the twinkling of an eye to meet the Lord in the air. This takes place immediately before Armageddon, where in Revelation Chapter 16 vs. 14-16, you will read where the world is preparing for Armageddon. vs. 16 specifically tells of this battle that is about to commence.

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. vs. 14

Right in between these two verses, you will read:

BEHOLD, I AM COMING LIKE A THIEF Revelation 16:15. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

We who are left are to be watching for Christ to come and get us right at this time. He told us before hand. It's all written here. We do not know the day or hour, but we do know the general time and we are to be watching for His Blessed Appearing, our Blessed Hope! Immediately before Armageddon. Amen!

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Ar-ma-ged-don. vs. 16

Christ makes it very obvious that he will appear in relation to the 6th seal where this warning is found in Revelation Chapter 16.

So are you saying the rapture of the saints is after the last trumpet?

So the wrath of God that is played out on the earth means we will be facing that ( which doesn't effect how I feel, because I would die for my LOrd) even though God promised we the faithful church would not go through that.

John 14:1-3 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (NKJV)

Copyright

Edited November 17, 2007 by Isa

[Isa]

I"ll just say when is the last trump?

Paul writes: "We shall be changed at the LAST trump." I Corinth. 15:52. The LAST trump is described as the SEVENTH trump in Revelation 10:7 and 11:15-19. Jesus himself placed the sign of His coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS in Matthew 24:29.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Rev. 10:7

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And the four and twenty elders, which sat upon their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God.

Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

And the nations were angry and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants, the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth Rev. 11:15-19

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed I Corinth 15:52

Jesus said:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Hi Toni,

Revelation 11:15

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

[Isa]

Isa

So the wrath of God that is played out on the earth means we will be facing that ( which doesn't effect how I feel, because I would die for my LOrd) even though God promised we the faithful church would not go through that.

God's wrath is not poured out until the final battle; the wrath/persecution you are talking about throughout Revelation is from man and the A/C and false prophet. Scripture is very clear that God's wrath comes at the end and that is what His children will be delivered from.

Even James, the brother of our Lord wrote in His letter:

Be patient, therefore brethren, until the coming of the Lord. James 5:7

James could not write to tell us that we must wait patiently until the coming of the Lord (Parousia), which occurs after the tribulation, unless we must endure the entire tribulation. Even Peter, like Paul, connects the coming of our Lord with the Appearance on post tribulation Day of the Lord, and like James, Peter stressed the need for the saints to await on earth until the coming:

But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then, that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons out ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:10-12

Paul writes in I Thessalonians 5:1-6

But the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destsruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness

Therefore, let us not sleep as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

There you have more confirmation. Paul would not tell us to watch unless he first tells us what to watch for, which he has done. Those not watching for the signs that Jesus himself gave us will be the ones caught off-guard as a thief sneaks in in the night. Those watching for the signs that Jesus and Paul gave us will indeed know when the time is near, even at the door, and will not be overe taken as a thief in the night comes.

Armageddon will be a day of melting and fire, where the sun and the stars will disappear as well as the mountains and islands. Peter is referring to the same post-tribulation cosmic event spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:29 that I have already posted, but for clarity's sake, I'll post it again here:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Hi Toni,

I think you will find Peter is referring to the end of the millennial kingdom and the earth and heavens are destroyed. Jesus is referring to the end of the tribulation when he returns.

Armageddon will be a day of melting and fire, where the sun and the stars will disappear as well as the mountains and islands. Peter is referring to the same post-tribulation cosmic event spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:29 that I have already posted, but for clarity's sake, I'll post it again here:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

In Revelation we have a new heaven and earth being created, which to me says the old heaven and earth was destroyed.

Revelation 21

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Lets have a look who is opening the seals that bring the wrath that happens on the earth. The seals are opened and God uses man to bring about His plan.

Revelation 6

1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder,