Ovedya Posted November 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted November 20, 2007 I agree with Shiloh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishcowboy Posted November 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,248 Content Per Day: 0.88 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2007 ...But, should we pronounce the judgment of condemnation upon a person for believing a doctrine that the scriptures have not stated is an essential? For those who would say yes, then are you not elevating the non-essentials to the level of essentials? It would be like a person condemning another to damnation because the latter believes in pre-trib rapture (or post, or mid, or non-cessationism). Since the scriptures do not pronounce judgment of condemnation for a rapture view or a view on the gifts, then neither should we -- and neither should we concerning predestination, election, millennial views, which day to worship on, charismatic gifts, etc., if others hold views different than we do on these issues. (SOURCE: http://www.carm.org/uni/christianbeuni.htm ) Also: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm To be absolutely clear, I do not see where anyone here, inluding myself, has pronounced judgment of condemnation upon any person here, and I do not see how you came to that conclusion. Secondly, while carm.org can at times be an adequate reference, it is not the final decision making authority. We are to search the scriptures to prove all things to determine the truth, depending upon the Holy Spirit's guidance with the Word. Thirdly, what is taking place here is challenging and exposing the pre-tribulation rapture lie that some here have taken offense to because they cannot defend it scripturally. Nevertheless, this is what scripture calls us to do, and even tho it may be an unpopular thing for some, we ultimately must abide by the Holy Spirit's leading and obey God and not man. you may not b e passing judgement, but you sure seem to be acting as the resident expert on this matter, with out allowing any input from others that do not agree with your way of thinking...... one of the things we have to keep in mind, as a red flag, for cults, is some one that comes across with the attitude that if some one does not agree with them they are damned to hell...... from the attitude i have gathered, you are bordering this.... you are correct, and everyone else that does not agree with you 100 percent is a false teacher..... the baptist churches i have been to, do still teach (yes, southern, and fudimentalist alike) teach pre..... most churches do not even teach end time stuff....... some are now teaching that it dont matter how a person believes, that there are good people every where and God wont send a good person to hell..... these are main stream churches....... please be careful of how you come across to people....you can chase people away from Christ with prideful speach, knowitall languages, and name calling...... something I do not wish to be guilty of is turning some one away from Christ..... would be better if that person had a millstone tied about their neck...... ( children does not have an age, they range from 1 minute old to 150 years old (and in some cases older) for we all are children....... personall y, i am surprised at the length of time this thread has continued with out one of the mods locking it out for the language used towards others.... please...... we are suppose to be supporting our brothers and sisters, not casting stones at them, not kicking them when they stumble, not throwing stumbling blocks before them...... when a person is being called a false teacher, they are being condemned, when what a person believes is call nothing more then a lie, and rubbed in with the perverbial salt, sounds like condemnation..... we must becareful of our speach..... Love..... not condemnation..... I asked a question and had it thrown back at me, just cast to the side..... you call that love? i dont.... I wanted an answer, you think your the resident expert, what is the answer????? tell you what, dont bother..... cause it will change the way you look at what you believe..... dont need to take up your time anymore... it would not matter what was posted, it would either be ignored or jumped on as herassy.... with all due respect..... mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Any one that teaches doctrine that directly opposes what is taught in scripture is a false teacher,pretrib most deffently opposes scripture. That is YOUR opinion. It may be "fact" in your mind, but given that there are other views who also use Scripture to support their position it is still just your opinion and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Any one that teaches doctrine that directly opposes what is taught in scripture is a false teacher,pretrib most deffently opposes scripture. That is YOUR opinion. It may be "fact" in your mind, but given that there are other views who also use Scripture to support their position it is still just your opinion and nothing more. You are presenting disinformation again. I haven't seen one scripture that says the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the tribulation. I dare you to present them. Again, the disinformation is nothing but your opinion. You are convinced in your mind that your view is biblical, and others are convinced in their minds that their views are biblical. I don't really care about the the issue of the rapture itself. I am simply correcting your's and others' ridiculous and uncalled for use of the term "heresy" for an issue that does not warrant such a term. What you or anyone else believes about the rapture is not my concern. Other people have their views on this issue and have the right to hold them without being accused of believing heresy. They are no more heretical for believing in a pre-trib rapture than you are for not believing in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Right back at ya. It's all your opinion without any scripture. Just as I thought, you cannot present the scriptures because there aren't any. Nice sidetracking of the challenge. You are now doing what I have witnessed over and over you accusing others here of doing. Toni, I haven't rendered an opinion on this thread about the rapture that needs to be supported. I don't have to provide Scripture for an argument I have not raised. I am not doing anything except pointing out your inaccurate and baseless charge of "heresy." It is nothing but a hateful, immature, petty, bitter little rant. The adult thing to do would be to respect the fact that others don't see it the way you do and that disagreeing with you does not mean someone is believing or promoting heresy. I realize that your pride cannot make room for that fact, but it is true nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 It is quite clear from your comments what yu are doing, and now you are sidetracking it. I am not sidetracking anything. I am just operating from a level of honesty you are not willing to face up to. You made a statement and now you cannot back it up. If you expect people to believe you have any credibility or accountability, then you either must provide the scriptures or retract your comments. I have not provided anything that requires Scriptural support. The truth remains that there are just as many books by conservative Bible believing Christians who use the Bible to support their views whether it be pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. To say otherwise is nothing less than less than intellectual suicide. They may not convince you of their position, but the fact remains that they do use the Scriptures. You just need to get over yourself and grow the maturity needed to accept the fact that disagreeing with you does not mean someone is following heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chin Posted November 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/08/1950 Share Posted November 20, 2007 well said cobalt! jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 The word heresy *Greek hairesis* is used several different ways in the New Testament. It is used to describe the Sadducees and Pharisees in their false teaching, and some professing Christ in Acts 5:17, 15:5, 24:14, 28:22. The word heresy is used to describe a division or schism within the body of Christ that harms it and that departs from sound doctrine in 1 Corinth. 11:19; Galatians 5:20. It is used of doctrinal errors brought into the Christian Church by false teachers and false prophets among it 2 Pet. 2:1-3. The above is taken from the "Let Us Reason Together" website and even though the site deals quite well with the issue of what heresy is, not included at any point in this site is any mention that a belief in the rapture, be it pre-trib or otherwise, is heretical. The site deals with heresy the correct way in connection genuine Church doctrine of which the rapture is not a part. In fact, if you look in the site's section on prophecy, they support a pre-trib rapture theory. It is ironic that that Toni uses a pre-trib site that supports what she calls "heresy" to define what heresy is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 280 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/15/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1965 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Sure, when we die our soul goes to heaven, at the resurrection we receive new heavenly bodies just like the one Jesus was resurrected into,1st cor 15:35-50 and 1st john 3:2. At the post trib 2nd coming when Christ returns those in heaven return with him to receive their heavenly bodies 1st cor 15:20-23,1st cor 15:51-53 and 1st thess 4:13-18. Those are the ones in heaven returning with christ at his coming revelation 19:11-21 ,we which are alive and remain will be translated into our heavenly bodies at that point aswell 1st cor 15:51-53,1st thess 4:13-18 and 1st john 3:2. We will be raised at the last day john 6:39,40,44,and 54 not 7 yrs b4 it. At the post tribulational return of Jesus. So that's two separate raptures several years apart. Can you prove that they take place so far apart? ummm,you have misread something somewhere.There is one rapture and it is at the posttrib resurrection of the just,which is at the post trib 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. Read again you clearly have mistaken my statement. There is no other rapture b4 this one,this is the 1st resurrection to which the just are resurrected and we are translated. the 2nd resurrection is the resurrection of the wicked after the millennium to face judgement. So when Jesus places His feet on the Mount of Olives do we receive our heavenly bodies there and then or do we have to wait awhile? As he is returning we meet him in the air.1st thess 4:13-18 So once we meet the Lord in the air we return with Him to the Mount of Olives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted November 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 280 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/15/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1965 Share Posted November 20, 2007 If we as christians are one in Christ there is no difference between Jew, Gentile, free man or slave then why when the Lord comes back, He leaves Israel here on the earth with the believing nations. They are not raptured after the tribulation. Why? Is there a difference between them and us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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