Guest shiloh357 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 <<It is one thing to "quote" the Talmud or any other document. It is another thing altogether to know why someone says the things they do. People can grab a statement from the Talmud and say "this is why they said it." They assign a motive to the author and all of a sudden the statement is "evil." It is easier to do that than to sit down a competent Talmud scholar ask why the Talmud says this and that. So, there is more to accuracy than just quoting words verbatim.>> I would agree with the principle of this statement Shiloh. People often do this with the Bible. Still, I would like to know if the Talmud really does say all those awful things about Jesus and Mary. I was hoping that you, Yod, or George would comment on this and save me the trouble of having to go look it up for myself, since the three of you seem so defensive of Judiasm. Going back to the original title of the thread if these things are in the Talmud AND if the early Christians (who were also Jewish) were persecuted by other Jews who considered them traitors to the faith (Yod's justification for their behavior I believe) than this would explain in part why the Jews have been hated thru the centuries. Shiloh, are you a Messianic Jew? First of all even if the Talmud says derogatory statements about Jesus and Mary and even if it does consider Jewish believers traitors, that is not an excuse for dropping our support. I find it interesting that Hinduism has some pretty derogatory things to say about Christians. They persecute Christian missionaries in India. So do Muslims and other false religions. I have heard of certain African religions that hate Christians as well. If someone though, conitinues to try and reach these people inspite of their hatred, if they continue to love them, feed them, and minister to them,that is considered meritorious. That is considered Christlike. IF however, the same love is extended to the Jewish people, IF we love them inspite of the fact that we who are Jewish are considered traitors, if we support their war against terrorism inspite of their hatred of us, if we love them inspite of being threatened and ostricized by family and friends, we are considered racists, and people like you cannot understand why we would support these "antichrist" people. It is a double standard as I have pointed out in previous threads. The fact that you consider our support for Israel as support for Judaism, shows that you do not have any kind of grasp on the issue. We are not supporting a religion but a people, and their right to breathe. We support them in their war on terror, because no one should be subjected to calls for their destruction. NO nation on this earth should have to justify its right to exist. The Jews are the only ones who are subjected to that garbage. Has it even occured to you that many of the derogatory statements made about Christianity in the talmud is a response to hatred and not the catalyst of it? The Talmud has been added to throughout the last 2,000 years. It was not until 1100 AD or so, that RASHI, a Talmud scholar, began deleting passages in the Talmud with regard to Messianic prophecy. Modern Jewish animosity of Christianity cannot be be blamed upon a mere stubborn refusal to accept who Jesus is. Crusades, inquisitions and pogroms have a lot to do with it. Christians who were by and large silent during the Holocaust also gave the impression that they approved of Hitler's madness have done near irepairable damage to the lines of communication between Christians and Jews where Jesus is concerned. Considering what has been done to Jews in the last two millenia in the name of Jesus, is it any wonder that the Jews fight to keep their children from becoming a Christian? Is it any wonder that they have not so nice things to say about Christianity in the Talmud? Charlie, you said that you like to put yourself in other people's postion to understand how they feel. Why not go and spend sometime studying Jewish literature. Why not spend sometime around Jews and get a feel for why they are the way they are. Shiloh, are you a Messianic Jew? yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daughterofaking Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Is it any wonder that so many Jews are suspicious of Christians and Christianity when there is so much antiSemitism among Christians?! :down: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Is it any wonder that so many Jews are suspicious of Christians and Christianity when there is so much antiSemitism among Christians?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 concretizes???? I'm not so sure you can say that Benny isn't a christian. He's just repeated what has been taught since the earliest days of christendom. An overview of the Book of Romans shows that the entire purpose of the book was because of the same schism there and then. It's just a shame that isn't properly taught in most churches. I believe this is the veil over the nations mentioned in Isaiah 25 which will be taken off at the marriage supper of the Lamb. but aside from that....this is perhaps the best reason why jews ARE "anti-christ"???? a better definition would be "anti-christian" and it is almost always our fault for being arrogant toward the natural branches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 Is it any wonder that so many Jews are suspicious of Christians and Christianity when there is so much antiSemitism among Christians?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest daughterofaking Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Is it any wonder that so many Jews are suspicious of Christians and Christianity when there is so much antiSemitism among Christians?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 One Accord Christians apparently hate Muslims in the same light. Even the ones love the Jews so much don't extend that same brotherly love to other anti-Christian neighbors, like the Muslims. It's no wonder it is so difficult to convert Muslims. You need to look into the many Messianic Jewish ministries that seek to minister to the Palestinians and they do it at the risk of being killed by Arafat's thugs. There are also many mainline Christian ministries that seek to care for poor Arabs in other countries. It is the Muslims who persecute and imprison these who have come to help them. I see more books out there about how to reach muslims than any other faith. MY christian bookstore carries no less than 30 titles devoted to that subject. Regarding other religions, you might find a couple of titles devoted to reaching buddhists, or hindus, and a handful about witnessing to Jews. If they did not love the Muslims, there would not be such an influx of books and materials dedicated to reaching them. Let's not stop at the Jewish people but extend this unconditional love to all peoples of the world. Actually, all too often, the problem lies in the fact that people love most others and stop when it comes to loving Jews. I am not trying to say that we should love Jews at the exclusion of other peoples. I am saying we need to stop loving everyone else while excluding the Jews. That is unfortunately what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 Actually, all too often, the problem lies in the fact that people love most others and stop when it comes to loving Jews. I am not trying to say that we should love Jews at the exclusion of other peoples. I am saying we need to stop loving everyone else while excluding the Jews. That is unfortunately what is happening. It is clear that may people hate the Jews and very few love them. That is not a big problem for us though. Because they only need to hear from true Christians who love them and all mankind. The biggest problem is that the closer a man thinks he is to God the harder it is to bring him to God. The Jews and particularly the orthodox religious Jews think they are the closest people to God in the world. That's what makes them the hardest nuts to crack when it comes to bringing them to the understanding of Jesus/Yeshua/Immanuel being their Messiah. I used to think it would be easier to bring people to God who believed in the scriptures but where misguided in their understanding, then to bring to God atheists who hated Christians and hated God because of ignorance of the truth. But alas I have discovered the opposite is true. I can only look upon George with admiration at the huge challenge he has been moved to undertake. My heart hopes he can save as many Jews as possible in the time we have left. All Praise The Ancient Of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest charlie Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 <<Actually, all too often, the problem lies in the fact that people love most others and stop when it comes to loving Jews. I am not trying to say that we should love Jews at the exclusion of other peoples. I am saying we need to stop loving everyone else while excluding the Jews. That is unfortunately what is happening.>> I totally disagree with this statement. Here in the U.S. it's been my observation that it is actually the opposite. Muslims, especially since 9-11 are viewed very, very negatively and each as a possible terrorist. Hindus, Buddists and Muslims are generally thought to be lesser human beings than Jews or Christians. I gather this by the off-handed comments people make about these groups. Of course Jews and Christians are generally undistinguishable from each other at least in this country. Also, I'm always hearing the term Judao-Christian. I've NEVER heard Muslim-Christian or Hindu-Christian. I've especially noticed the double-standard coming from the televangelists and radio evangelists. It seems that all of them that I've heard in the last ten years view the Jews in the same way as Yod, George, Shiloh and many others on this forum. The implication I've picked up on from these people are that it's better to be of a Jewish race than to be white, black, asian or even Christian. I realize this may be different in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 The implication I've picked up on from these people are that it's better to be of a Jewish race than to be white, black, asian or even Christian. You have not gotten that implication from any of us. We have never said or implied that it is better to be Jewish. Your bias against the Jews causes you to misinterpret our desire to be a blessing upon the Jews. At the foot of the cross, we are all the same. God does have a special calling and mission for the Jewish people that He will fulfill. Those who deny that fact are in error. Muslims, especially since 9-11 are viewed very, very negatively and each as a possible terrorist. Hindus, Buddists and Muslims are generally thought to be lesser human beings than Jews or Christians. I gather this by the off-handed comments people make about these groups. The Muslims in the US and around the world have done very little to curb terrorism perpetrated by other Muslims. There was little condemnation by the Muslim world for what happened on 9-11. Oh, some of them offered some remorse at our demise, but it was in a left-handed way, and they only did that becasue it was strategically necessary. The presence of terrorist sleeper cells made up of Muslims who have assimilated themselves in this country makes identifying the true terrorists much more difficult. These are people who have actually joined churches, who live in suburban neighborhoods, they go to bars, and participate in our holidays. They use our openness against us. So yeah, folks tend to be a little wary. The Muslims in the US who know about these cells should come forward with such information. We have yet to see much. If they have, it is not being reported in the News. As for the crack about us seeing Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus as less human and Christians and Jews, I have not seen anything on this board that reflects that. Of course, I have not read every post, but as of late, I have only seen criticism of Muslim terrorists, and have yet to see anyone post derogatory remarks about people belonging to those religions. I have seen posts from people in times past wanting to know how to witness to people of other religions. Doesn't sound to hateful to me. Tell me Charlie, do you support the Arab/Muslim call for the destruction of the state of Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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