Death of a Christian

[apothanein kerdos]

Keep in mind that Christ, in refering to "the gates of hell shall not prevail" is speaking overall and not necessarily to every circumstance. Look to ancient China or the middle east for evidence of this. In both there were thriving Christian communities that are only remnants of the past in the modern day. They are, for all intents and purposes, culturally irrelevant. Globally Christianity can never die, locally it can (and will).

[George]

The spirit moves where it is unrestricted and unquenched! If you notice what has happened throughout Church history, you'll notice that wherever there was a move of God -- it was fresh -- then man "institutionalized" the church and soon it became dead.

For example, and I say this in VERY GENERAL terms and by no means speaking to every single person within each of these denominations, but rather giving an generalization of what's happening throughout the world.

The church was on the brink of death from 400-1500's when the Word of God was yanked out -- otherwise known as the dark ages. Until you had Luther and the Reformation.

This was the start of the Lutheran church and in the beginning despite the persecutions by the catholics thrived and continued -- until it became "institionalized". The move of the Spirit then took place among the Reformed (also Presbyterian -- John Calvin considered the founder of both) then out of this came the Anabaptists, continued to the Puritan movement, then through the Wesleyean brothers -- the start of Methodist church while at the same time Jonathan Edwards was leading the "Great Awakening" along with George Whitfield in the mid to late 1700's. Then you had the move of God through Moody, Finney, and Torrey.

I'll grant you this is a very brief overview of Church History, but it'll serve my purpose of illustrating a point. The Lutheran Church is dying -- where it was once thriving. The same can be said with most denominations -- how did this happen? It was when the Spirit of God was quenched!

Now we have the opposite effect taking place which is staging the great apostasy. Because people are so fearful of quenching the spirit -- the body isn't TESTING the spirit and thus the enemy is getting a foothold within the body.

So while we are in the same stage that the apostasy will take hold, we are also at a place where the greatest revival will take place as well! I believe that we are on the very doorsteps of this time!

We are in the last month of the harvest season and whenever you harvest fruit -- you wait till it's ripe on the tree, then you literally are harvesting in the last weeks of the season. You're harvesting so fast before the fruit falls to the ground and it spoils!

The harvest season is coming to a conclusion -- the wheat and tares are coming in together!

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

[larryt]

Wow, you were generous. I gave it 10 to 20 years myself.

I think you are too generous in your assessment. IMO the church is already dead in America. please forgive my cynisism. I have been observing the falling away since the mid 1980's.

There is a reason for the departure from the faith. The faith has not been faithfully preserved and passed down from the previous generation. The gospel of "easy believism" "just accept Christ" without the conviction of sin is the death noll to the church.

While these may be an indication of the death of a culture:

* Lowered education

* Lower morality

* More moral apathy of the few intellects around

* Lack of direction

* Lack of unity

* Increase in disease, especially disease that destroys birth

* Privatized faith

The death of the church is evidenced by

2Ti 3:1

[cjrose]

What are the signs that a culture is dying?

* Lowered education

* Lower morality

* More moral apathy of the few intellects around

* Lack of direction

* Lack of unity

* Increase in disease, especially disease that destroys birth

* Privatized faith

In the western world, Christianity is dying. We can advocate that Christianity can never escape a region of the world, however we cannot argue against the fact that it can become culturally ineffective. The last tenet of Christianity that affects our culture is solely through a legal route, and as we are quickly discovering that even this is closing up. We can say, "Please Holy Spirit, move across the nation!" We can keep declaring, "God is going to open people's hearts!"

My question is how? There is always pre-evangelism involved...even when people seemingly come to Christ "out of no where" there has still been a reason established along the line. Even Christ refers to us planting the seed and letting God grow that seed. The thing is, the seed cannot be planted if we are not culturally effective.

In light of this, it is my belief that American Christianity will be dead, or completely ineffective, at the death of the current generation (25+). When those who are now teenagers are old, they will be the last ones to have remembered the great "cultural war" or any acts of Christians in the modern times. Christians will still attend church 70 years from now, they will be in their buildings, but they will have no effect on the culture. We will be nothing more than the senile grandparent that someone has stuffed into the nursing home. This is the path of Christianity at the moment. God will not intervene unless we are willing to bring about true revival (that which targets the whole of man, not just some silly hand waving, crying, singing, and an emotional response to Jesus).

Only when we become truly humbled before God and give up our pursuit of that which is big and plentiful will we begin to see redemption take place. Only when we give up hedonism within Christianity will be begin to plant the seed for revival.

Mark my words, within the next 70 years if this path is not changed, Christianity will become worthless in America.

I will admit that the younger generation has become desensitized which means that they can also become desensitized about Christianity but I refuse to believe that Christianity will ever die. When that day comes, so will the Lord to gather His people and those non believers for judgement day. I truly believe that everyone on earth will know the word of the Lord before He returns. There will always be Christians even if they must go "underground". Perhaps I am naive in my thoughts but I trust that there will be someone somewhere who still believes in our Lord Jesus Christ.

[LadyRaven]

I will admit that the younger generation has become desensitized which means that they can also become desensitized about Christianity but I refuse to believe that Christianity will ever die. When that day comes, so will the Lord to gather His people and those non believers for judgement day. I truly believe that everyone on earth will know the word of the Lord before He returns. There will always be Christians even if they must go "underground". Perhaps I am naive in my thoughts but I trust that there will be someone somewhere who still believes in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course the church will never die. However, there are two trains of thought in Christianity about the future of the church before the second coming/end of times scenario.

Postmillenialists believe that there will be a great revival and then the millenial reign of Christ. Therefore, most likely, though therre are dips and times where there are small declines (like the stock market) overall the condition of the world will get better until the end. Some don't believe that completely, but believe that the declines might make things reverse for a long time, but in the end the revival will come.

Other beliefs about the end times are more pessimistic and seem to say that the church will most likely always be persecuted in some way in most places and there will be a great decline where there will be only a remnant remaining when the end times come in whatever form they come in.

Me, I'm clearly and solidly undecided on the matter, however I do see the culture itself declining from what it was at one time here in the US, regardless of what happens with the church. It is not a given that the decline of the culture is going to indicate the decline of the church. It could also lead to a very prominent schism in society between believers and unbelievers, but the church still flourishes.

Im sure that the fabric of "American" society is fraying at a greatly alarming rate. But to me this does not indicate the doom of the church, even for a short time.

However my reference to the gates of hell not prevailing therefore Europe isn't much of a threat was supposed to be a joke, and I don't think anyone got it

[apothanein kerdos]

What are the signs that a culture is dying?

* Lowered education

* Lower morality

* More moral apathy of the few intellects around

* Lack of direction

* Lack of unity

* Increase in disease, especially disease that destroys birth

* Privatized faith

In the western world, Christianity is dying. We can advocate that Christianity can never escape a region of the world, however we cannot argue against the fact that it can become culturally ineffective. The last tenet of Christianity that affects our culture is solely through a legal route, and as we are quickly discovering that even this is closing up. We can say, "Please Holy Spirit, move across the nation!" We can keep declaring, "God is going to open people's hearts!"

My question is how? There is always pre-evangelism involved...even when people seemingly come to Christ "out of no where" there has still been a reason established along the line. Even Christ refers to us planting the seed and letting God grow that seed. The thing is, the seed cannot be planted if we are not culturally effective.

In light of this, it is my belief that American Christianity will be dead, or completely ineffective, at the death of the current generation (25+). When those who are now teenagers are old, they will be the last ones to have remembered the great "cultural war" or any acts of Christians in the modern times. Christians will still attend church 70 years from now, they will be in their buildings, but they will have no effect on the culture. We will be nothing more than the senile grandparent that someone has stuffed into the nursing home. This is the path of Christianity at the moment. God will not intervene unless we are willing to bring about true revival (that which targets the whole of man, not just some silly hand waving, crying, singing, and an emotional response to Jesus).

Only when we become truly humbled before God and give up our pursuit of that which is big and plentiful will we begin to see redemption take place. Only when we give up hedonism within Christianity will be begin to plant the seed for revival.

Mark my words, within the next 70 years if this path is not changed, Christianity will become worthless in America.

I will admit that the younger generation has become desensitized which means that they can also become desensitized about Christianity but I refuse to believe that Christianity will ever die. When that day comes, so will the Lord to gather His people and those non believers for judgement day. I truly believe that everyone on earth will know the word of the Lord before He returns. There will always be Christians even if they must go "underground". Perhaps I am naive in my thoughts but I trust that there will be someone somewhere who still believes in our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a world outside of America.

For some reason, in the US, we have this idea that if anything bad happens to us, it must be the end of the world. We were attacked on 9/11 and people thought the rapture would occur the next day. The fact is, we're insignificant.

Christianity can, and will, collapse here (unless we do something) just as it has elswhere in the world in the past.

[Marnie]

The spirit moves where it is unrestricted and unquenched! If you notice what has happened throughout Church history, you'll notice that wherever there was a move of God -- it was fresh -- then man "institutionalized" the church and soon it became dead.

Right on George! In studying revivals, it seems as though first there comes a revival, then a movement, then comes the denomination, then eventually we see the mainstreaming of that denomination, then people get dissatisfied with it and the cycle starts all over again. It seems to me as I look around that Americans are trying to "gin-up" a revival, using all manner of worldy ways to do it (music, dance, even prophecy) because they think they know what revival looks and feels like. People see church discipline and adhering to the Word of G-d as quenching the Spirit, as if in order to give the Spirit freedom you have to "let everything go." This is why in some churches you have kids running all over the sanctuary, pastors who never preach against sin or never on holiness and people never make a commitment to join the church because they might "quench the Spirit." As my daddy used to say, "It's all bass ackward out there."

I'm probably way off the topic, AK, sorry.

[LightofJesus]

As believers we all came to the Lord usually when our life seemingly or actually was literally falling apart. We as humans are always looking somewhere for answers to any problem, but as believers we know we should be looking to our creator. Saying all that, I do not believe for a second the church is dying it is reviving through the means of our Saviour!!! I do believe with my "WHOLE" heart He has things handled and He does know how to turn hearts where they belong. I do also believe there is a remnant out there that God will use for these end times. You see our actions mean nothing to God it is our heart condition that He looks at and if our heart is totally broken to Him then guess what He can and will use that soul. We are I believe in those end times and the harvest will come running to the church, and I believe it will be due to disaster that God will "USE" to bring in the rest of the church. The Lord did give me some insight on this a few years ago that there will be disaster and the people will come running to the church out of fear but the enemy will chase them right to the Father's waiting arms, hallelujah! We need to focus on the harvest and not so much worry about the declining of of this nation, cause the whole world is in a dying state. It has all been prophecied and prophecy cannot be changed. So let us "church" be about the Father's business and bring in the harvest while we can!! Amen?

[billie]

As believers we all came to the Lord usually when our life seemingly or actually was literally falling apart. We as humans are always looking somewhere for answers to any problem, but as believers we know we should be looking to our creator. Saying all that, I do not believe for a second the church is dying it is reviving through the means of our Saviour!!! I do believe with my "WHOLE" heart He has things handled and He does know how to turn hearts where they belong. I do also believe there is a remnant out there that God will use for these end times. You see our actions mean nothing to God it is our heart condition that He looks at and if our heart is totally broken to Him then guess what He can and will use that soul. We are I believe in those end times and the harvest will come running to the church, and I believe it will be due to disaster that God will "USE" to bring in the rest of the church. The Lord did give me some insight on this a few years ago that there will be disaster and the people will come running to the church out of fear but the enemy will chase them right to the Father's waiting arms, hallelujah! We need to focus on the harvest and not so much worry about the declining of of this nation, cause the whole world is in a dying state. It has all been prophecied and prophecy cannot be changed. So let us "church" be about the Father's business and bring in the harvest while we can!! Amen?

AMEN!!!!

[apothanein kerdos]

As believers we all came to the Lord usually when our life seemingly or actually was literally falling apart. We as humans are always looking somewhere for answers to any problem, but as believers we know we should be looking to our creator. Saying all that, I do not believe for a second the church is dying it is reviving through the means of our Saviour!!! I do believe with my "WHOLE" heart He has things handled and He does know how to turn hearts where they belong. I do also believe there is a remnant out there that God will use for these end times. You see our actions mean nothing to God it is our heart condition that He looks at and if our heart is totally broken to Him then guess what He can and will use that soul. We are I believe in those end times and the harvest will come running to the church, and I believe it will be due to disaster that God will "USE" to bring in the rest of the church. The Lord did give me some insight on this a few years ago that there will be disaster and the people will come running to the church out of fear but the enemy will chase them right to the Father's waiting arms, hallelujah! We need to focus on the harvest and not so much worry about the declining of of this nation, cause the whole world is in a dying state. It has all been prophecied and prophecy cannot be changed. So let us "church" be about the Father's business and bring in the harvest while we can!! Amen?

Amen? No, I don't agree.

For one, it ignores the current trend in American religion, even among true Christians; privatizing our faith. Our faith is only relevant within politics and even there it is losing ground, meaning we are becoming culturally irrelevant (aka "dead"). The church is not in any sort of positive revival. We see more poeple "walking the isle" but this is not salvation, nor is it proper discipleship. People are becoming spiritually awakened but not towards God; instead it is towards an anti-intellectual, false spiritual, hedonistic pleasure seeking faith. That is not revival.