Witnessing

[Anne]

How do you witness to someone who believes the Bible is just a collection of historical records? That it is just another symbol of religion, like the cruifix or a Buddha, and that it bears no weight on where we go after death?

[apothanein kerdos]

How do you witness to someone who believes the Bible is just a collection of historical records? That it is just another symbol of religion, like the cruifix or a Buddha, and that it bears no weight on where we go after death?

That it is highly illogical if it is just a collection of historical records. Even "secular" records tend to paint its heroes in a shining light or with little flaw. The Bible, however, has no problem admitting that its main heroes also have flaws which destroy their personalities.

Furthermore, how could it be 100% historically accurate but still be wrong in its other claims? This simply does not make sense.

Lastly, with all religions placing some sort of emphasis upon man, the Bible seems to de-emphasize man...why would the multiple writers over thousands of years hold to this consistency?

There are TONS of arguments, but those are some good ones. Check out "Case for Christ"...there are a few chapters that deal with this subject in depth.

[Anne]

How do you witness to someone who believes the Bible is just a collection of historical records? That it is just another symbol of religion, like the cruifix or a Buddha, and that it bears no weight on where we go after death?

Anne I am one of those very people you speak about. But you as a church member would never know it unless I admit it as I do right now. I've made many posts on here that address and deal and just gets involved in and with the christian community right here on worthy. I have no negative motives for being here. I do have a non-christian motive that is positive for being here that is more/less personal reasoning. I get involved in the scripture to a certain degree also I do believe in god, probably not the same way but similur to most people do. Yet I do not believe in the bible accuracy at all. Although when asked I will say if you wish to preach. Try to just preach the good, because good will bring about good. I don't denouce the bible although I don't agree with it either.

If you wish to attempt to witness myself. By all means I'm for it. Fight fair and be factual or if unable to be factual lead by evidence or example and I'm game

No fighting here, please, or i'll bring in the penguins and have this thread moved!

Seriously though, why do you believe the Bible to be just a collection of historical books? Why do you believe it is not accurate?

I'm interested that as someone who goes to church that you do not believe the accuracy of the Bible? Let's discuss this peaceably , please.

[Anne]

Let me think how best to answer these and i'll get back to you dood.

Thanks for replying

[apothanein kerdos]

Example1: The bible itself is extremely hard to understand. You can see it right here on worthhyboards one person makes a post and then 10 posts follow giving a different story for the same piece of scripture. Right there to me says inaccuracy. Because the views are taken to the extreme in some of the cases. So the bible is not clear on what it is talking about. If it was. There wouldn't be so much controversy.

Difficult to understand doesn't mean something isn't true. Let me ask you, can you please explain to me, using scientific terms and mathmatical theorum, quantum physics? Of course you can't, and I don't expect you to. If you somehow did I'd just give you a blank stare because I don't know how to do it. Yet, what we do know is that there are certain facts within quantum physics and certain theories that are turning into facts. In other words, they are truths even though they are difficult for the average person to understand.

The Bible, in some places, is similar. Though I will be taken outback and stoned to death for saying this, there are some portions where only those who have an adequate understanding of how scripture works are going to really understand what is being said. There are other portions where even a child can understand. Generally speaking, most of the Gospels are written at about an 8th grade level, whereas some of Paul's writings are at a graduate level! So there is a broad level of difficulty here that is hard to grasp.

This does not mean it is false; it means that an infinite being has given finite beings a look into just a fraction of his knowledge. One thing you'll notice is that when you get people who are trained to study scripture, you narrow the interpretations of scripture, at least on the basic issues. There are, however, gray issues but because they are non-essential, it should have nothing to deal with the validity of scripture.

Example2: I don't know this for a fact, but at least a majority if not all religions and the most dominating ones, christianity, muslim etc are all baised on their own versions of the bible. Each one is similur but worded slightly different. Why would A good lord give us different bibles baised on race? jewish have their own, white people have there own middle easterns have their own. this does not make sense but it is the way it worked out.

Yeah, that's a major misunderstanding.

The Torah was written in the middle east, the Bible was written in the middle east and Greece, and the Qu'ran was written in the middle east...hard to base this on race.

Likewise, Christianity was open to all races but somehow Europeans became the dominant ones to control it (however, it began with middle easterns).

Also, the only two religions in the world that have similar texts is Judaism and Christianity.....other than that everyone has completely different texts. The Qu'ran was written in the 7th century while the NT was written in the 1st century and not comletely compiled until the 4th century.

Example3: With in each religion there is a cult factor that only Exist in religions that is baised on the bible. Heaven's Gate cult mass murder comes to mind. Plus the use scare tactic's in order to converse a person to become a believer meets the criteria of a cult. which is only found inside of some religion dominations. but it is in all religions Another example. Muslim Extremism.

Athiesm is no exception to extremist. I point you to the Neo-Nazis, many of whom adopt two forms of belief:

1) Naturalistic athiesm

2) Neo-paganism (based solely off "white" gods and goddesses)

Regardless, as you can see, even athiesm has it's extreme...does this mean it too is false?

Just because someone takes something to the extreme does not nullify the truth in that subject.

Example 4: This is just a observation I do not know if it is factual or not. It appears to be and is something I wish to study soon. Cases of OCD, Depression, Anxiety and others nasty problems people have (don't mind you that lying to self and others is a big part of Depression) Appear to be higher in the the religious communities which are built apon the bible.

This is true. THe reason for it, however, is a false idea of what the Bible is. When people have a false idea about God, they are more likely to go extreme or dive into self-harm. The problem isn't Christianity, it's man's perception of Christianity that creates the despair.

Example 5: More people have been killed in the name of God than any other cause ever. Killing is not holy. But we tack a holy name to it. This comes from the bible.

Why is killing not holy? The Bible says nothing against killing and promotes it as a form of justice. It is murder that is viewed as wrong.

Also...how does any of this disprove the Bible?

It's good that you're searching, there's nothing wrong with asking questions at all. I think you need to ponder on some stuff a little longer though...which is okay, we all do.

[Anne]

No fighting here, please, or i'll bring in the penguins and have this thread moved!

Seriously though, why do you believe the Bible to be just a collection of historical books? Why do you believe it is not accurate?

I'm interested that as someone who goes to church that you do not believe the accuracy of the Bible? Let's discuss this peaceably , please.

Example1: The bible itself is extremely hard to understand. You can see it right here on worthhyboards one person makes a post and then 10 posts follow giving a different story for the same piece of scripture. Right there to me says inaccuracy. Because the views are taken to the extreme in some of the cases. So the bible is not clear on what it is talking about. If it was. There wouldn't be so much controversy.

Okay, can I go through this example by example, being as I really haven't got as much energy as apothanein does and since I just got home from working a night shift.

Well I would agree that some writings in the Bible are extremely hard to understand, but just because somethings hard, does it mean we should give up trying to understand it? The differing opinions are unfortunate, however, this simply shows the faults of man, rather than any faults you believe may be in the Bible, the inaccuracy is with us, not with the Bible. lol........alot of the times, we do express our opinions with too much zeal, as if we know it all, i'm guilty of that too, but again this shows our faults not the Bibles'. Well the Bible is very clear on what it is talking about, some of us are just to stubborn, dumb or celf centred to listen. I often think if we were more like young Samuel of the Old testament, saying, "Speak Lord for thy servant heareth," rather than Bart Simpson, saying, "Hey dude, what's up, here's what I think dude!" we would be much more united as a people under God. You see, what i'm trying to say is the Bible is very, very, clear, we're just not listening, we've stuck our fingers in our ears and are going about our own merry way, (and before y'all start shouting at me, I include myself in this analogy). Have you forgotten, man fell from God's grace in the Garden of Eden, we disobeyed the very first commandment He gave us, therefore we are broken, we have many many faults, and unfortunately heated debates is one of them, if we weren't broken broken we would be perfect and still running round the gooseberry bush in Eden, but we too have fallen from grace. What you've pointed out here, to me, is not incorrect, I agree with you, but you've merely pointed out the faults of man, you've merely shown me my very own short comings.

So I must conclude that this does not prove that God, or His Word, has any inaccuracys' whatsoever. Surely you agree with this?

Following some of my own advice, i'm going to take some time before going on to the next example, and keeping my fingers crossed that a row does not erupt in the meantime.

Please guys, let me talk with dood, i want to understand this

Your Sister in Christ Jesus

Anne

[Anne]

Let me quickly reply to what you said earlier in your previous post, thinking back to school....., oh dear do you know I can't recollect much of Bible teachings in primary school, but I remember two sunday school teachers who taught us, and as children, yes we all would have had the same conclusion too, or similar, I think as children we are more open to accepting things as we see it, but as adults and in my opinion you will even see this begin to develop in early teenage years, self becomes more important, for example, My opinion will become important because I will begin to realise that I have a right to have an opinion. Self fulling needs, I want to have a great job and buy a huge house, own a sports car, materialism. The list goes on and on, lol....... if I write them all out, then I will never work, and I will most certainly get fired, and I will never get that huge house and sports car!

But do you see what I mean, the older we get the more mature we become,..... don't read the fellowship section or you might come to doubt that i'm a mature adult .....when as children we are more likely to accept God and His Word at face value, which of course is the correct way to read the Bible. As adults we are more likely to scrutinise what's on the lines, what's between the lines, etc. We are constantly questioning and questioning, debating, examining and manipulating, to suit our own minds.

Whereas, the majority of children, when they are told, "And God created the heaven and earth," the first words out of their mouth is "Wow........(you can see their minds ticking over).........Why?" They mainly accept it as it is written.

Those people who are desperately trying to save others, whilst sacrificing themselves, what a burden they must have on their hearts, a burden which is so heavy it could almost drive them to the borders of insanity. I don't really know what to say, this is a sad truth that I do not fully understand. But I would also point out to you that "Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." We must love God, of course, but what is this love if not coupled with fear (i'm not talking about terror here), we are also reminded "do not fear him that is able to destroy the body rather Him that is able to destroy the soul", so I think there is good fear and bad fear.

But again the desparation of some people, honest christian, who throw everything away just to tell one person about Jesus, well that just shows you what a heavy burden has been placed upon their heart, how important you are to them.

LOL doth I see a debate from the distance?

In the beginning, God commanded man not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, it was not God's command for Eve and Adam to listen to the devil, however, it is in God's nature to trust, to do what a lot of parents do, give us a chance.........the benefit of doubt, so to speak. We didn't have to listen to the devil, we could have told him to go take a long walk of a short peir, but we saw something that was good to look at and looked as if it would taste absolutely delicious, what harm would it do to take just a little? So of makes me think of my grandmothers cooking

Sure looks good, smells good, but you just take a bite and you'll find out the truth!!!!!

Anyway, on to point 2, otherwise I could be waffling all night!

Example2: I don't know this for a fact, but at least a majority if not all religions and the most dominating ones, christianity, muslim etc are all baised on their own versions of the bible. Each one is similur but worded slightly different. Why would A good lord give us different bibles baised on race? jewish have their own, white people have there own middle easterns have their own. this does not make sense but it is the way it worked out.

Yes, i've notice, all different version of religion out there! Which all speak of a god. And again, it does not make sense, i mean why would God allow so many different religions to exsist, if He wants everyone to know about Him? I would suggest, that this is our freewill, to choose, manmade religion or God? But how do we decide what is the truth, how do we know we are walking the right path? Now i'm not educated in world religions, but I'll give you my honest opinion. Are you ready, you can start rolling the eyes just about now........ ..........The only God, is the living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (God of the Old Testament era) who sent His Son, (God become flesh and walked among us) to die on the cross, this was written down in the Holy Scriptures (God the Holy Spirit) so that we the future generations might know Him.

I know this in my head, and I feel it in my heart. My head tells me that when I look around and see the history of our lands, that God himself is recorded in the very ground, I read the Bible and although the facts in it seem somewhat amazing, they all add up............but before this knowledge ever reaches my head I feel it in my heart. But I must have that head knowledge with my heart. One without the other is, well, dare I say, empty. What is it that song says, "To know Him, is to love Him." Head and heart knowledge of God go hand in hand, if we react solely with the heart, we are likely to react in an inappropriate manner or blow things out of proportion, or change things, because we don't understand. If I have head knowledge, but do not feel God in my heart, what use am I to God?? I'm just like, well this computer, information with no feeling cause or reasoning. Am I getting off track...........I think I am. Just a sec

Aha, I remember the point now! Now, why indeed would God allow so many different versions of the Bible, if Christianity is indeed the true religion, if God really did die on the cross and the path, through Jesus, that many christians follow is the only path why allow so many different interpretations of the Bible? Doesn't He want everyone to know the true Him in it's purest form. I suspect He does, however, yet again we all think we know much better, and because our minds do not understand, we keep watering it down, in order to make it more digestable, and pretty soon we are going to be left with different versions of different versions of the truth, and we will find ourselves on very dodgey ground...........now I know some of you will have something to say about that! if you do, please email or PM, I would appreciate this thread staying clear of debates!! I want to get as close to God of the old testament, as close to Jesus, as close to the Holy Spirit as I am permitted, and I can do that by reading the Bible, by increasing my knowledge and opening my heart. And the version of the Bible I chose, will influence the way that is achieved, believe me if I could read and understand the Hebrew language and Greek, that is the form within which I would choose to study, alas lol, God put me on an island and ordained that I should speak english .

Q. Why would a good Lord give us different bibles based on race?

Ans. He didn't. We did that, and we aught to know better, don't you think? After all, we've been told enough times.

Again dood, these are my failings which you have pointed out, not Gods.

Here now, look at that, i've talk meself through two hours of typing, and haven't said half of what I wanted to discuss.

Thanks dood, i'm glad we've got this talk going, so far i've learnt that i'm a debating, interferring busy body who aught to know better....... ..........it does no harm to examine myself once in a while!!!!

My advice to anyone who is reading, allow the Holy Spirit to unite your knowledge with your heart.

God Bless you all,

Anne

[cjrose]

How do you witness to someone who believes the Bible is just a collection of historical records? That it is just another symbol of religion, like the cruifix or a Buddha, and that it bears no weight on where we go after death?

If you feel moved by the Holy Spirit to witness then you will be guided by His words, not yours. You don't always have to take scripture from the bible to witness but your own experience that brought you to God. You cannot expect that every person you witness to will come to Jesus. Just be an example of His love. Others notice when there is something different about you and begin to ask questions.

[Anne]

Dood,

I've just come from a Bible study which bares some relevance on this thread, give me time to digest, and I'll get back to you on this and on the "debate" about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which we are not having

How do you witness to someone who believes the Bible is just a collection of historical records? That it is just another symbol of religion, like the cruifix or a Buddha, and that it bears no weight on where we go after death?

If you feel moved by the Holy Spirit to witness then you will be guided by His words, not yours. You don't always have to take scripture from the bible to witness but your own experience that brought you to God. You cannot expect that every person you witness to will come to Jesus. Just be an example of His love. Others notice when there is something different about you and begin to ask questions.

Thank you Cjrose

[Guest Summer Sun]

Hi Anne and Dood

Please may I join in, I do hope that you don't mind? (I'm new on here.) There's some good questions and points. (I haven't yet figured out how to do the 'quote' thing so it might take me a while!)

Dood you were asking about Adam and Eve and having sinned deliberately or not,and that affecting the fairness of the outcome - have I understood your query correctly? I did re-read the passage in Genesis, and looking at it again Eve knew completely that what they were doing was in complete disobedience to God ('God did tell us not to eat the fruit of that tree') but they both went along with listening to the serpent because it all seemed absolutely wonderful and they wanted the knowledge of God.

Now for a personal take, I do hope you won't mind? Since God created Adam and Eve, it kinda makes sense that he'd have given them inner consciences so they'd understand that He was (is) God and they're not, and should listen and obey what He says. They'd no need for further knowledge/understanding as He'd already given what they needed. Anything else is surplus and makes us more anxious/irritable/self-centred etc etc because we (they/we - it's almost the same?! ) end up focusing on ourselves not Him.

Anyway I hope you don't mind an English girl having joined in?