LadyRaven Posted August 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I don't think I have the energy for this topic tonite. Not sure if I ever will, honestly. I get the feeling that this isn't an effort to find common ground or even a topic seeking greater insight...but perhaps rather an effort to promote some type of doctrine or incite an argument. I hope that I'm wrong, and maybe tomorrow I'll wake up and find some clarification that will shed some light on things. But at this point, honestly, I'm just highly skeptical and hestitant to invest time and energy into a topic that I am concerned isn't going to be beneficial. I mean no offense to the original poster. Part of the problem is that I have no idea what you're disagreeing with exactly, or if there is genuine disagreement. The other problem is that because you are new, I have no idea what your intentions are. Sometimes we have people drop in who are merely set on pushing their own agenda and they will be deceitful, pretending to ask questions and probe...when they are really intending on "teaching" and "enlightening" the board about some "truth" that we are supposedly all blind to. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I will say that so far it's looking supspicious. Hopefully I'm wrong and we can have further discussion and find some common ground. But for now, I'm headed to bed because it's been a long day for me. Ciao I believe you are correct. This person promotes the heretical doctrine of Moral Government Theology. Obviously there are scriptural verses which prove it wrong, but I don't think it is a matter of an exchange of ideas as much as an attempt to lead some astray or cause some to doubt (or looking for new converts to this abheration). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Methinks he desires some fresh mea- I mean, er, new converts..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted August 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Sometimes, all you can do is pray. I know what it's like to be locked in a false belief - it's not easy to break. Pray for their eyes to be open and the bonds broken. Thank you sis, I do pray that before she dies, she will see the Lord and accept Him. Sometimes at the last minute before death I want to believe that the compassion of the Lord will give them one more chance to accept. Once when my grandmother lay in the hospital, unable to speak or move as she was in a coma and her organs were begining to shut down. It was a matter of time and I whispered in her ear to accept the Lord, He will save you and as miracles do happen her eyes tried desperately to look at me and she barely squeezed my hand. I know that she understood and that an angel was there to show her the way. I feel peace for her because she heard me. She really heard me by the power of God. Oh I just got the shivers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antz Posted August 17, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 71 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/13/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 No. You are entirely twisting the verse to say what it does not. Romans 5:9 points to the assurance of our salvation, which is the hope of glory (v. 2). Nowhere did Paul write that we hope to escape the wrath of God. On the contrary, he wrote that we will escape the wrath because of Christ! Actually it is you who said that there is another hope... the word you use is ANOTHER... check your previous post. And finally in verses 9-10 Paul points to another hope which is assured through the death of Christ: "Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath." No. To "work out your own salvation" does not state or imply that works are necessary for salvation. are you saying that Paul is UNNECESSARY asking the members of the Church to work on something WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING ? You see, this is reading into the Scriptures at best, and completely misinterpretaing them at worse. i am not interpreting anything here... it is WRITTEN that you have to WORK OUT your own salvation. To "work out your own salvation" states clearly that salvation is a personal matter that must be worked on by the individual. Those that use Phil 2:12 as evidence that works are necessary for salvation hardly ever, if at all, cite the whole verse which says, "So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" yeah your right... IT IS A MUST TO WORK OUT your own salvation... must = necessity Paul's encouragement to the Philippians was that they continue in the faith, to work out their own salvation. To "work out" salvation means to bring salvation to its full conclusion through the operation of faith. It has little, if at all, to do with good works. Yeah your right... (although encouragement is not the correct words to use i'll accept it)... the main point here is that you just said... IT IS A MUST to WORK OUT salvation... MUST = NECESSARY Good works are the result of faith. They do not produce or sustain salvation. you already said it yourself, you MUST work out your own salvation... take note the word you use... MUST Here you are twisting salvation into something that it is not. there is no twist in there... that is purely verse... if you sin willfully after you have received the knowledge of TRUTH... you won't be saved from the wrath. Salvation is once and for all time. It cannot be lost. Nor can a certain aspect of salvation be lost. Either you are saved or you are not. If you are saved from the wrath, then you are saved from the wrath. you missed something here so let me rephrase it... Salvation from the wrath is once and for all time. It cannot be lost. Nor can a certain aspect of salvation be lost. Either you are saved or you are not. If you are saved from the wrath, then you are saved from the wrath. Salvation from hell is once and forever - i agree on this one Paul wrote that we are saved from the wrath. Nice TWIST... but not good enough... I think this can be a decissive argument in this topic... IF you can cite a verse that Paul wrote that WE ARE SAVED FROM THE WRATH... take note please... it is in past tense... then i will believe... BUT IF THERE IS NONE... this topic conclusion will be... FAITH IS NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE US FROM HELL... WE MUST WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION FROM HELL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 QUOTE No. To "work out your own salvation" does not state or imply that works are necessary for salvation. are you saying that Paul is UNNECESSARY asking the members of the Church to work on something WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING ? Of course it is a necessity. Working out your salvation is a necessary activity in the life of a Christian. The problem is that you are interpreting "work out" to mean "work for." Paul says to work it out. He does not say to work FOR your salvation. Working out your salvation means to put it on display, and that is an absolute necessity. QUOTE You see, this is reading into the Scriptures at best, and completely misinterpretaing them at worse. i am not interpreting anything here... it is WRITTEN that you have to WORK OUT your own salvation. It is very clear that you are engaging in a misintpretation/application. You are applying it to an issue that Paul is not. Paul is not talking about how to keep or maintain salvation. He is talking about how it is lived out before the Lord, and before the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Nice TWIST... but not good enough... I think this can be a decissive argument in this topic... IF you can cite a verse that Paul wrote that WE ARE SAVED FROM THE WRATH... take note please... it is in past tense... then i will believe... BUT IF THERE IS NONE... this topic conclusion will be... FAITH IS NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE US FROM HELL... WE MUST WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION FROM HELL Again, you are applying this to an issue that it is not meant to apply to. We are saved from the wrath because we who are saved have eternal life TODAY. It is not something we are waiting on. I have eternal life today, because I am in Christ. "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24) And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13) I am saved already. I have eternal life. I have passed from death to life, and I don't have to worry about hell. I am in Christ, and He is in me. If you are still trying to stay out of Hell, then I don't want what you have. I have the Son, and therefore I have life. You are still striving, still working. I am resting in the promise. I am sealed with Holy Spirit, who is the testimony of my salvation, and the foretaste of my inheritance. Jesus lives in me in the person of the Holy Spirit, and I have full assurance. You have no assurance. I am saved, sanctified, sealed and fully assured in Christ. You don't have anything I need. I know that if I died tonight that I would be with Jesus, because He said that He would never leave me nor forsake me. I started off the Christian life from the point of victory over sin death, hell and the grave. I started where you are trying to end up. A true Christian does not need what you offer. You need Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted August 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Nice TWIST... but not good enough... I think this can be a decissive argument in this topic... IF you can cite a verse that Paul wrote that WE ARE SAVED FROM THE WRATH... take note please... it is in past tense... then i will believe... BUT IF THERE IS NONE... this topic conclusion will be... FAITH IS NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE US FROM HELL... WE MUST WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION FROM HELL Again, you are applying this to an issue that it is not meant to apply to. We are saved from the wrath because we who are saved have eternal life TODAY. It is not something we are waiting on. I have eternal life today, because I am in Christ. "I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24) And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn't have the Son of God does not have life. I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13) I am saved already. I have eternal life. I have passed from death to life, and I don't have to worry about hell. I am in Christ, and He is in me. If you are still trying to stay out of Hell, then I don't want what you have. I have the Son, and therefore I have life. You are still striving, still working. I am resting in the promise. I am sealed with Holy Spirit, who is the testimony of my salvation, and the foretaste of my inheritance. Jesus lives in me in the person of the Holy Spirit, and I have full assurance. You have no assurance. I am saved, sanctified, sealed and fully assured in Christ. You don't have anything I need. I know that if I died tonight that I would be with Jesus, because He said that He would never leave me nor forsake me. I started off the Christian life from the point of victory over sin death, hell and the grave. I started where you are trying to end up. A true Christian does not need what you offer. You need Jesus. Amen shiloh This thread even though I have tried to stay away, is getting so tiring. It's obvious antz needs proof of some kind and can't be satisfied that we just know we are saved by the grace of such a generous and loving God that He sacrificed His only Son on the cross, to suffer not only physically but before that, the humiliation He endured. He did this for us. We are saved because we believe and have faith that this is the truth. We are bought by the blood of Jesus. I just can't understand why some have to take apart the word of God literally and make something different of it. True believers accept and know as you said, we are assured of our salvation because we have that personal relationship with Jesus and are filled with His gifts so undeserved. It's great to ask questions but to argue and not listen to the answers to those questions is just a waste of time. I am a child of God because of free will and I have chosen to be a disciple. What has been written in the Bible inspired by God himself is the truth. There, my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted August 17, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Shiloh took the words rightout from under my fingers. Thanks, brother! I couldn't have written it better myself. To "work out" your own salvation is not to "work for" your salvation. Salvation does not require good works. I think that the problem with your grammar has taken hold of your argument, antz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyRaven Posted August 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,981 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/20/1964 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Shiloh took the words rightout from under my fingers. Thanks, brother! I couldn't have written it better myself. To "work out" your own salvation is not to "work for" your salvation. Salvation does not require good works. I think that the problem with your grammar has taken hold of your argument, antz. I truly wish it were that easy to explain. Moral Government Theology teaches differently, unfortunately. And Antz is not here to discuss as much as he/she is here to argue this heresy in front of us and so hopefully cause some of us to stumble into this heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted August 18, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2006 Shiloh took the words rightout from under my fingers. Thanks, brother! I couldn't have written it better myself. To "work out" your own salvation is not to "work for" your salvation. Salvation does not require good works. I think that the problem with your grammar has taken hold of your argument, antz. I truly wish it were that easy to explain. Moral Government Theology teaches differently, unfortunately. And Antz is not here to discuss as much as he/she is here to argue this heresy in front of us and so hopefully cause some of us to stumble into this heresy. Right. There will be no reasoning with him/her. The problem is, he/she believes that salvation hinges on something that he/she can do instead of what Christ has done. The responsibility has been put in the wrong place. Obedience is important, but scripture teaches that obedience flows out of love (John 14:15) which is a result of an existing relationship. It proves that a relationship already exists. In fact, Scripture goes so far as to teach us that we don't obey God until after He has done a work in our hearts. Here's proof of our condition prior to salvation: * We do not understand God (Romans 3:11) * We do not seek God (Romans 3:11) * We have a mind that is hostile towards God (Romans 8:7) * We cannot submit to God (Romans 8:7) * We are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1) * We have a heart of stone towards God (Ezekiel 36:26) * We love darkness, we hate the light (John 3:10) * We desire to do the will of satan (John 8:44) * We follow satan (Ephesians 2:2) * We are enslaved by sin (John 8:34) * We are unable to please God (Romans 8:8) * We don't understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14) Prior to God making our hearts alive (salvation) we are: hostile towards God, we do not seek Him, we cannot submit to God, we are unable to please Him. Thus, we do not obey. It's impossible. Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to work FOR your salvation. The verses I just listed show that we cannot love God until our hearts are changed. Obedience flows out of a heart that has already been redeemed. Teaching that one can work to "keep" their salvation is heretical also because it denies the power of the blood of Christ to keep His own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts