st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 My charismatic brothers and sisters: My original response to this thread was not intended as an invitation to enter into a harsh debate that may be dishonoring to God. However when I am accused of worshipping another God or unbelief I tend, rightly or wrongly, to respond in kind. I have given my opinion of Robertson and I think there is little doubt of what I think of television healings. I also think those who believe him are duped. That does not mean I think you are an unbeliever or beyond the scope of God's grace. I think we can debate these things however without these false charges of unbelief or buffoonish accusations of "attacking God's annointed". blessings, sw "My charismatic brothers and sisters:" I can't tell if that is meant as sarcasm but if it is the entire above post has no meaning, makes no sense, and is contradictory. Since I can't tell of the sincerety of "my charasimatic brothers and sisters" if it is meant as a good thing then I do apologize but seriously. are you now trying to cover yourself? There was no sarcasm intended. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 My charismatic brothers and sisters: My original response to this thread was not intended as an invitation to enter into a harsh debate that may be dishonoring to God. However when I am accused of worshipping another God or unbelief I tend, rightly or wrongly, to respond in kind. I have given my opinion of Robertson and I think there is little doubt of what I think of television healings. I also think those who believe him are duped. That does not mean I think you are an unbeliever or beyond the scope of God's grace. I think we can debate these things however without these false charges of unbelief or buffoonish accusations of "attacking God's annointed". blessings, sw St. Worm. I have no problem with discussing this in a civil manner, but in case you haven't noticed, we are not debating scripture, but are only going through strife between those who support Pat Roberson and those who dislike Pat Roberson. It is hard to have a God honouring debate when that is what the thread has turned into. Personally, I don't watch the 700 Club, Benny Hinn, or any of these televangelists. I have seen them in the past, but in the case of the 700 Club, I think I saw it once this year, and Benny Hinn I haven't watched in more than a decade. I am not a charasmatic. I am a Pentecostal. I know many consider them both the same, but they are not. Pentecostals are much more conservative than charasmatics, at least the type of Pentecostalism I believe in. All full gospel believers are not the same. Pat Roberson is Baptist. Oral Roberts is Methodist. There are full gospel believers in many denominations, but they are not all charasmatics. As far as I am concerned, we like who we like and dislike who we dislike when it comes to ministers. The fact that you St. Worm don't like Pat Roberson makes no difference to me, and I doubt Pat loses any sleep over it either. The only real disagreement I have with you in this thread is the attack on the validity of whether or not people who testify to being healed were healed. I don't believe it is your place to make that judgement. God can heal through any method he chooses. All we have to do is believe. One woman was healed as she touched Jesus' garment. People were healed standing in Peter's shadow and others through the use of a prayer cloth. In the Old Testament someone was healed when the prophet stretched himself over a dead man's body. In another instance, Naaman dipped 7 times in Jordan. In one case, Jesus spoke the word and healed someone a great distance away. To say that nobody is really being healed through the ministry of 700 Club to me is a judgement I would not be prepared to make. If someone believes they would be healed by God in a Benny Hinn revival, who am I to stand in judgement and say it could not happen? When all is said and done on the question raised in this debate, I would imagine that those who have their mind made up that they don't like Pat Roberson will continue to feel that way, and those of us who either are full blown supporters, or just open minded to his ministry will continue to hold to our positions as well. " God can heal through any method he chooses. All we have to do is believe." Without going into your post and dissecting it, this quote by you is definitely bothersome. It sounds like healings are based on our level of faith. A lot of faith and you get healed. Little faith and you don't. This is classic Word of Faith doctrine. Do you ever consider that God could prevent individuals from getting sick or injured if he wanted? Sickness and suffering is not of the devil. It is from God. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 21, 2006 SW, We can't deal in absolutes in this area. Not all sickness or suffering is from the devil. Not all sickness or suffering is from God. I don't think Butero meant what you quoted the way you took it. I can't speak for him, but I think what he's saying is it's wrong, unbiblical to limit God how we believe God can heal us. We should just believe. I don't think he meant that if we don't get healed, we're not "believing enough". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. So you are saying the devil and sin bring illness and death to man apart from God's will? If you believe that, you are in dangerous territory. That's no laughing matter. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGR Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 8,601 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/16/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1973 Share Posted August 21, 2006 :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Now I've heard everything! Disease and death is the result of sin in this world. It is not of God. Furthermore, we don't have to possess faith at all for a healing. Those men who let down a man on a stretcher through the roof of a house in order to have their friend healed had the faith. Jesus healed that man for THEIR faith, not the sick man's! But it is about faith ultimately...doesn't have to be your own. So you are saying the devil and sin bring illness and death to man apart from God's will? If you believe that, you are in dangerous territory. That's no laughing matter. sw It's God's sovereign will that we all live in health. Alas, we live in a fallen world, and God has a permissive will too. There are things He allows and there are countless things He does not allow--but we have not the foggiest notion what they are, because He has stepped in and cancelled those things! Amen! Of course the devil is the source of all disease and death... ultimately. Not laughing, either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 From reading St Worm's posts, he appears to be the type who would try to talk Naaman out of his healing. He would be claiming that theologically, God wouldn't use water to heal and that he likely never had leprosy to begin with, that it was just a misdiagnosed skin ailment and that it cleared up on its own. Either that, or he would claim it was a magician's trick. He would then link Elisha to the false prophets of his day. I agree with you Nebula. It is amazing how a thread starting out as a testimony of God's healing power has become one of trying to undo a miracle in order to uphold false doctrine. I believe God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and a religion that limits God like the one St. Worm holds to is one I want no part of. Boy, you charismatics are a harsh group. Any disagreement and you accuse me of being an unbeliever and worshipping a different God. I especially dislike the way you butero attack like a pit bull and then play innocent. During the course of this thread I have been accused of being an unbeliever by at least two posters. You are more charitable towards out and out heretics like Benny Hinn than you are me. Sad. sw I will gladly accept the label "pentecostal." The problem I have is you opnely criticise fellow ministers that I consider men of God. People who have dedicated their life to spreading the gospel, you openly attack. There are ministers I disagree with, but If they preach the true plan of salvation I consider them a brother in Christ. We all play on the same team. Your heart may be sincere, but ifsomeone does not fit into your narrow theological model, you show them no tolerance. We as Christians should spend out time spreading the gospel, not tearing down those who spread it in a way a little differently than we do. That sounds nice but when you consider the hundreds of thousands who may be making shipwreck of their faith by watching the snakes of TBN I think its important to combat bad doctrine where it is found. Certainly the apostle Paul was not indifferent to bad doctrine and challenged it vigorously. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2006 Well, anyone who does point a finger at God's anointed is acursed. God will take care of it. In the meantime, everyone---it's faith that brings the healing. Gods anointed? Ole pat once said Hugo Chavez should be assassinated in order to save money on war. I guess God never told the Judges of Israel and the Kings of Israel to kill anyone. Do you really believe God told Robertson to have Chavez killed? sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted August 21, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted August 21, 2006 You are right. I was not saying that everyone who fails to be healed did not believe enough. Just like I don't believe that we can walk in absolute divine health all the time as some teach. Sickness can come upon the most righteous person, but I still believe in the power of God to heal the sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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