Incredible Interview

[EricH]

Rick Warren uses the Bible translation "The Message" quite a bit through out his book.

Here is an example of how he uses this....

Self-help is no help at all. Self-sacrifice is the way, my way, to finding yourself, your true self. (Matthew 16:25, Message Bible)

Now, here is the same verse from the NASB translation:

For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. (Matthew 16:25, NASB)

The verse from "The Message" could be talking about dieting or a number of other things. It also leaves out the "for my sake" equation.

The NASB verse makes it clear that the purpose of the verse is for Christ's sake. "The Message" translation leaves out Christ and the verse becomes about finding "your true self." This is new age thinking.

So, is our purpose to find our true self or to do things for HIS sake?

OK,

But lets see how Rick Warren used the passage in His book. That is the real question. This is what He says:

"I have read many books that suggest ways to discover the purpose of my life. All of them could be classified as "self-help" books because they approach the subject from a self-centered viewpoint. Self-help books, even Christian ones, usually offer the same predictable steps to finding your life's purpose: Consider your dreams. Clarify your values, Set some goals. Figure out what you are good at. Aim high. Go for it! Be disciplined. Believe you can achieve your goals. Involve others, Never give up. Of course, these recommendations often lead to great success. You can usually succeed in reaching a goal if you put your mind to it. But being successful and fulfilling your life's purpose are not the same at all the same issue! You could reach all your personal goals, becoming a raving success by the world's standard and still miss the purposes for which God created you."

Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren page 19

So it seems that He was not doing what you accuse him of. Notice what he says regarding Ephesians 1:11

1. You discover your identity and purpose through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

2. You don't get to choose your own purpose. God chose it for you

3. Your purpose in life has a cosmic significance that will reach into eternity

Puprose Driven Life p 20-21

[eagleswings]

and whysoblind..............

[Kabowd]

Lots of "me" and "I" and "us" in the piece, but very little Christ. Rick will never be effective for the Kingdom until he preaches the GOSPEL. I pray for his wife and wish them well.

Fox had been running a lot of Rick Warren interviews for good reason: Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns Zondervan, publishers and hockers of Warren's books. From the Lighthouse has a good article on this as does Frontline.

The piece is full of theological errors:

The chief aim of Christians is not preparation for eternity. Eternity is prepared for us and we have been prepared by Christ. The purpose of our lives is to glorify G-d and to be obedient to His Word.

We are never told in Scripture to focus on our purpose. We are to focus on Christ. Our purpose comes from a relationship with Him.

Also, nobody's book "all of a sudden" sells 15 million copies. It was carefully crafted to appeal to the greatest number of people possible to make money for the publisher, and the author.

Rick's "nobility" points of giving away all his money, yada, yada, yada have been well documented in the many interviews he has given all over the world. Everybody loves a generous, gregarious man.

There is so much here it is difficult to know how to respond. In a way it seems like you may be slicing the baloney a little finely in terms of the "theological errors". Jesus spoke many times of the importance of being ready for eternity. I have read Rick Warren's materials and heard him speak and repeatedly he talks about the importance of glorifying God. Warren is not speaking about our own purpose that we come up with. He is speaking of purposes that the bible seems to indicate do bring glory to God, because God has stated that they do (Things like worship, and evangelism, and service). The scriptures seem to make it clear that there are things we can do on this earth that will impact eternity

In terms of book sales, you must have an inside knowledge into what Rick Warren is motivated by.

I find your statement about his giving troubling. It seems that no matter what he does, you are not going to be impressed. If he makes money he is wrong. If he gives it away he is wrong.

Just some observations

I actually agree with both of you a little. With EricH, I agree to the extent that I think sometimes people judge Rick Warren a little too harshly (regarding his income and personal motivations). With Marnie, I agree with what she stated about our purpose and preperation for eternity and her disagreement with Warren on that point. Heaven (or "eternity") is not our hope and should never be our focus. Rick Warren's statements toward the beginning of the interview regarding this point are somewhat troubling to me. They have very gnostic undertones, implying that our present state is unimportant and that only "spiritual" or "eternal" things matter.

I can't fault him for making money with his book. If there is any fault here, it would be more reflecting on modern, Western Christianity as a whole because it indicates somewhat of an obssession with self-help and "me" issues. The fact that his book has become such an icon in the "Christian industry" reveals alot about where we are spiritually, intellectually, emotionally and culturally. The danger I find in it is that often when a person writes a best-seller, there is an automatic assumption that what they have said is well-studied and theologically sound. More dangerous still, is when people think that everything that person subsequently says must be true and sound as well. This isn't the case at all. Bruce Wilkenson, Donald Miller, Brian McLaren, and John Eldridge are some other prime examples of this. A person can write a best-selling "Christian" book, be a brilliant communicator and engaging author/speaker....and still be way off base doctrinally. Rather than judge them as a person, we need to learn to look at the content of what they teach and detect the errors.

As a personal example, when I read Donald Miller's "Blue Like Jazz" and John Eldridge's "Wild At Heart", I found myself completely entertained by what I read. Both of them have very easy writing styles, very descriptive, and I really enjoyed reading their books. I laughed out loud at some of Miller's stories and could easily relate to many of Eldridge's scenarios. However, as I've grown more spiritually and learned to study Scripture more thoroughly, I discovered that many of the things each of them taught or advocated in their books were not biblically accurate. In Miller's case, some of what he said is actualy a dangerous philosophy called existentialism that is rapidly growing among Christians (which lends itself easily to post-modernism and relativism).

Anyway, my point is, we need to be careful about "endorsing" people unless they have substantial evidence that the majority what they say is doctrinally sound. We can agree with them on points, but we need to clarify that on other points we may differ. This is important because we may say "I loved Donald Miller's book" and someone less spiritually discerning may buy everything he writes believing it is true. We have to stay on our toes and keep our minds guarded and alert. Unless someone has proven themselves to scripturally sound, we need to be careful recommending their work to others. In the case of Rick Warren, because I disagree with many of the things I've heard him say (or read that he's stated), I tend to steer away from promoting him to anyone. There are other authors I trust far more (such as Francis Schaeffer or JP Moreland) that I would encourage someone to read because I know I can trust that whatever it is, it's going to feed them spiritually and intellectually and have bibical integrity.

[EricH]

We are never told in Scripture to focus on our purpose. We are to focus on Christ. Our purpose comes from a relationship with Him.

Here is a quote from the Purpose Driven Life:

"1. You discover your identity and purpose through a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have such a relationship, I will later explain how to begin one.

2. God was thinking of you long before you ever thought aout Him. His purpose for you predates your conception. He planned it before you existed, without your input. You may choose your career, your spouse, your hobbies, and other parts of your life, but you don't get to choose your purpose

3. The purpose of your life fits into a much larger, cosmic purpose that God has designed for eternity. That is what this book is about"

Purpose Driven Life p. 20-21

[serotta]

I will agree with WSB in one respect, this is just like arguing over what Bible translation is the "best". If Rick Warren doesn't speak to your heart, that's not a problem, just don't listen. But Pastor Warren is preaching the true Gospel, he is producing much "good fruit", and to tear him down like this is just wrong.

[Kabowd]

We are never told in Scripture to focus on our purpose. We are to focus on Christ. Our purpose comes from a relationship with Him.

Here is a quote from the Purpose Driven Life:

"1. You discover your identity and purpose through a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have such a relationship, I will later explain how to begin one.

2. God was thinking of you long before you ever thought aout Him. His purpose for you predates your conception. He planned it before you existed, without your input. You may choose your career, your spouse, your hobbies, and other parts of your life, but you don't get to choose your purpose

3. The purpose of your life fits into a much larger, cosmic purpose that God has designed for eternity. That is what this book is about"

Purpose Driven Life p. 20-21

I know that this is directed towards Marnie, but if I may interject, I think she may have been responding to the same point I was referring to in the article quoted in the OP. Here is the part I would take issue with:

People ask me, What is the purpose of life? And I respond: In a nutshell, life is preparation for eternity. We were made to last forever, and God wants us to be with Him in Heaven.

One day my heart is going to stop, and that will be the end of my body-- but not the end of me.

I may live 60 to 100 years on earth, but I am going to spend trillions of years in eternity. This is the warm-up act - the dress rehearsal.

God wants us to practice on earth what we will do forever in eternity.

This is the part I was responding to that has very gnostic undertones. Christians are not supposed to white-knuckle earthly existence, just trudging through, holding on for the day we'll all "fly away" to be in some eternal state of disembodied spirituality. Yet, this is the exact mentality that Warren advocates (as do many modern day preachers). It gives the impression that our present state here in this life is just a "warm-up act" for the real show in the future. This mentality completely undermines the entirety of the gospel message. It's somewhat fatalistic and opens the door for apathy. Why worry about social justice or engaging our culture if this is all going to be wiped out anyway? No one ever cares about opening acts.

On the contrary, Scripture teaches that this world, the earth and our present state all does matter. If Rick Warren understood this, the title of his book would've applied to many more areas of life than he could've ever dreamed. Yes, there is purpose and destiny in all that we do, but not because it's some warm-up act to an eternal big-top show in the future. Everything now matters to God because He created it and He's actively involved in His creation. There is purpose because we have a Creator who designed all things to work within His own purpose. This life existence may be temporary, but this does not diminish it's importance at all. It matters just as much to God as the "future". Heaven is going to be here someday, on the New Earth, established for all eternity. Instead of seeing this as the "warm-up", we need to see our present existence as something as vitally important as the main event. The way Warren refers to our life here and now could easily lead to devaluing culture, evangelism and even human life. Afterall, he even diminishes our earthly bodies in his interview. We need to guard against devaluing anything God created....temporary or not.

[Marnie]

There is so much here it is difficult to know how to respond. In a way it seems like you may be slicing the baloney a little finely in terms of the "theological errors". Jesus spoke many times of the importance of being ready for eternity. I have read Rick Warren's materials and heard him speak and repeatedly he talks about the importance of glorifying God. Warren is not speaking about our own purpose that we come up with. He is speaking of purposes that the bible seems to indicate do bring glory to God, because God has stated that they do (Things like worship, and evangelism, and service). The scriptures seem to make it clear that there are things we can do on this earth that will impact eternity

In terms of book sales, you must have an inside knowledge into what Rick Warren is motivated by.

I find your statement about his giving troubling. It seems that no matter what he does, you are not going to be impressed. If he makes money he is wrong. If he gives it away he is wrong.

Just some observations

Eric, we almost always agree and so I find it troubling that so many Christians don't seem to exercise discernment when it comes to this man.

First, nobody (and I mean nobody) writes a book for any reason other than money. The entire industry is motivated by money, which is why modern translations of a book written thousands of years ago are copyrighted and you pay out the nose for a copy of the NIV. No publisher is going to publish a book he doesn't think will make his corporation money. I do have inside information on that, but you dont need inside info, just common business sense! Now, I believe Rick when he says he doesn't take a penny in royalties; I have to, he beats that drum everywhere he goes. For some men, it's not the money that drives them (pardon the pun), it could be the noteriety, the power, who knows what it is in Rick's case. He is not an altruist, of that I am certain.

Second, Rick's heresies are well-known. His Purpose Driven theology is splitting churches and causing confusion among ministers of every denomination. I have been to his "church," and while he draws a crowd, if it weren't for the coffee and snacks, they would go home hungry.

Third, of course we are all here for the purpose of glorifying G-d. What I resent in the extreme are people like Rick Warren and John Maxwell, who have made tons of money for worldly corporations promoting Biblical principles. I have never seen a self-help book mentioned in the Bible anywhere. But I do read about being unequally yoked. We all apply that principle to marriage, but I think we need to consider it in light of business. Rick Warren and others write books being hocked by non-Christians to the Christian sub-culture. How dense is the church, anyway? We get snookered into spending upwards of $30.00 for a book light on Scripture and heavy on a feel-good-about-yourself gospel. Don't think for one second that the publisher isn't pulling the author's strings. It happens all the time. I get manuscripts with notes from agents and publishers telling me to "clean this up," "make it interesting for the 20-somethings," "make this more positive," and so on. Warren appeares on Larry King and FoxNews for one reason: to sell his books. He may not take the money, but he is working for his publisher, and his publisher wants to make money. And a good author will use any means necessary to sell a book, even his own family problems.

Fouthly, Jesus stated His prurpose clearly:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,--Luke 4:18

He came to PREACH, TEACH and HEAL. His followers were told to do much the same thing:

He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.--John 14:12

Jesus had to go to the Father so the Holy Spirit could be given, endue us with "power from on high," so we could do what Jesus did, PREACH, TEACH and HEAL.

I may slice Rick's baloney a little fine, but as believers, we are told in 1 Cor. 11:31,

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

This, of course, is mentioned in connection with the Lord's Table, but the principle is sound. We to judge one another's fruit or actions. I don't judge Rick's eternal soul, I can only comment on what I see and hear him saying.

Sorry, but I wouldn't buy anything from a snake oil saleman, either.

[Kabowd]

First, nobody (and I mean nobody) writes a book for any reason other than money.

Marnie, I agree with many of the things you have said, but I did want to bring this up. For one, why is it wrong to earn money writing a book? If you're using the gifts God has given you (to write), and you feel you have something to share with others (information or for entertainment value), why would this be wrong? How is it any different than a secretary who files papers and receives a paycheck? I don't know a single secretary who offers her services for free, nor any who does it for the love of organization

My point is, if you're going to fault Warren for writing a book and earning money off of it, you'll have to fault every other person throughout history who has ever written anything and profited from it. I can certainly agree with you that what he writes may not be worth the paper it's printed on, but I don't see the validity in faulting him for profiting from something he worked to create. Secondly, you cannot assume that every book ever written is for the sole purpose of making money. This may be a factor (even a large factor), but there is also alot to be said for those who sincerely do want to educate others or share insight that God has revealed to them. One example that comes to my mind would be Francis Schaeffer and his book "True Spirituality". This book came about out of necessity and was basically compilations of various lectures he had given over a period of 2-3 years. Thousands of people have benefited spiritually, intellectually and emotionally due to the teachings Schaeffer shared through his many books. Do you fault him or his ministry for the financial profits they made as the result therof?

Again, I think we can certainly pinpoint doctrinal errors and address specific things that Warren has stated or done that contradict Scripture. I think we have to be careful, though, when we cross over to making assumptions about his (or anyone's) motivations and intentions.

[EricH]

We know from the Bible that everything does NOT happen in perfect order. Though God does KNOW everything ahead of time, God is not the author of sin and confusion, so 99.9999999999999% of human history was neither planned nor caused by God.

Actually the scriptures do teach that God is sovereign over all. He controls evil but is not responsible for it. (Note: I had typed something else, but had misread your post. I thought you had indicated God did not know all things in advance. I reread it and realized you just hold He knows all things but is not in control of all things)

[Marnie]

First, nobody (and I mean nobody) writes a book for any reason other than money.

Marnie, I agree with many of the things you have said, but I did want to bring this up. For one, why is it wrong to earn money writing a book? If you're using the gifts God has given you (to write), and you feel you have something to share with others (information or for entertainment value), why would this be wrong? How is it any different than a secretary who files papers and receives a paycheck? I don't know a single secretary who offers her services for free, nor any who does it for the love of organization

My point is, if you're going to fault Warren for writing a book and earning money off of it, you'll have to fault every other person throughout history who has ever written anything and profited from it. I can certainly agree with you that what he writes may not be worth the paper it's printed on, but I don't see the validity in faulting him for profiting from something he worked to create. Secondly, you cannot assume that every book ever written is for the sole purpose of making money. This may be a factor (even a large factor), but there is also alot to be said for those who sincerely do want to educate others or share insight that God has revealed to them. One example that comes to my mind would be Francis Schaeffer and his book "True Spirituality". This book came about out of necessity and was basically compilations of various lectures he had given over a period of 2-3 years. Thousands of people have benefited spiritually, intellectually and emotionally due to the teachings Schaeffer shared through his many books. Do you fault him or his ministry for the financial profits they made as the result therof?

Again, I think we can certainly pinpoint doctrinal errors and address specific things that Warren has stated or done that contradict Scripture. I think we have to be careful, though, when we cross over to making assumptions about his (or anyone's) motivations and intentions.

I, of all people, would never want anybody to work for nothing! My point was about being UNEQUALLY YOKED. Rick is a Christian (yes, I do believe that) and he writes books for a non-Christian publishing house. Zondervan was sold off years ago. It is impossible to not be driven by the profit motive in the publishing industry. It costs a lot of money to put a book out. You would be surprised how much compromise an author has to do in order to get his book out. When Rick goes on TV, he is on there promoting a book, I don't care what network it is or what the circumstance is. His words are as carefully scripted as his "theology," so as to appeal to the greatest number of people possible. How do you think an author gets paid? Just for writing a book? No way. Part of the deal is interviews and book signings and speaking engagements. I'll guarantee Rick travels with handlers who primp him, advise him on what to wear in front of certain groups and even on what to say and what not to say.

I am glad you brought up Francis Schaeffer. His books were published by Christian publishing houses (Crossway, IVP, etc) not secular ones. His books, while I love them, are generally not considered popular literature. During his heyday, he did not appear with the talking heads, giving his opinions on a variety of subjects. He is the "thinking Christian's" writer. Schaeffer is one who was NOT motivated by profit. His entire life portrayed that. He was humility personified. And he never spoke in sound bites. Rick should take a lesson from Schaeffer.