The coming Messiah

[Guest yod]

Don't forget Jesus Said that He would destroy the temple. I guess most out there think that Jesus is the A/C because they say that the anti-christ will destroy the temple. Sure is confusing when you think Dan.9:27 was refering to the anti-christ. But that is what exactly happens when you just can't see the spiritual side of things. 

I don't think it Dan 9:27 is necessarily speaking of the anti-christ but I still don't think it's speaking of Yeshua, either.

OK ya'll...a few things

1. Brad - Yeshua was not speaking of tearing down the Temple and the Bible makes that clear in very literal language. Too bad you don't understand English.

2. Blindseeker- What does Cyrus have to do with this? I am very familiar with all those verses. He only gave the decree to rebuild the Temple but it was done by Nehemiah and Ezra (as I'm sure you know).

Or was it only spiritually rebuilt, Brad?

If you are using that as an example of God calling a non-jew to do His work, I still don't see how that relates to Daniel 9:27 being Yeshua who tore down the Temple.

3. Dad - I forgot. Oh yea....

Daniel 9:27

"...and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Don't make me dispute every little word. Please tell in simple language your position on;

1. The people of the prince

2. the prince

3. Who is "to come" and destroy the city and the sanctuary?

4. How can this be anyone but the Romans since they are the ones who destroyed the city and the sanctuary?

I would genuinely like to know what you think. It doesn't make any sense to me yet.

(Brad; I don't want to hear your "spiritual" interpretation)

Here I go again spiritualizing everything. O well I guess it's better to be spiritually minded then carnally minded. I guess that means that I belong to the spiritual cult as many out there would accuse me.

I would never accuse you of being in a cult for that...You're just weird.

There is such a thing as OVER spiritualizing....and you are doing it.

[Guest idolsmasher]

Daniel 9:27

"...and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

That's actually in the 26th verse.

Verse 25= time from the literal rebuilding of the temple until Christ

Verse 26= death of Christ and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 ad.

Verse 27= Antichrist, beginning of tribulation, and abomination of desolation.

Christ may have conquered sin, but sins are not yet ended amoung the holy people. The seventy weeks are not yet finished. The consummation means the fulfillment of these things or the end of them which is at Christ's return.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

I truly love you, did you know that? I find our debates a challenge - sometimes frustrating - but nonetheless we are able to communicate amicably. You have the heart for the Jews I appreciate - but you need to only get a few things straight. I hope to clarify a bit by answering your questions:

3. Dad - I forgot. Oh yea....

Daniel 9:27

"...and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Don't make me dispute every little word.

"Not one jot, not one tittle shall pass away till all is accomplished." "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word shall never pass away." and

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Remember these? Need I say more?

Please tell in simple language your position on;

1. The people of the prince

God has always used other nations to both bless (Cyrus - as Blindseeker pointed out) and curse Israel. It was the Romans who came and ultimately destroyed the temple (hieron) in 70 A.D.

2. the prince

You must shift your thinking and get this straight. Keep it in context: "the prince that shall come". This is used to identify the people (God's agents for destruction). Daniel understood that the "prince" was a "spiritual entity", by his own experience:

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

I believe "the prince" is probably referring to:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3. Who is "to come" and destroy the city and the sanctuary?

It was the "prince" who was to come and it was the "people" who destroyed the city & the sanctuary.

4. How can this be anyone but the Romans since they are the ones who destroyed the city and the sanctuary?

Isn't that what I said?

I would genuinely like to know what you think. It doesn't make any sense to me yet.

Are we agree yet?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Idolsmasher,

Christ may have conquered sin, but sins are not yet ended amoung the holy people. The seventy weeks are not yet finished. The consummation means the fulfillment of these things or the end of them which is at Christ's return.

How about giving the following some consideration:

We all agree that the 70th week of Daniel's vision was something unusual or peculiar. The emphasis of it was to "restore Israel to a righteous state with God":

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Well, we know that the Messiah (Jesus) came to do just that, BUT instead, after 3 1/2 years of ministry to the Jews - He was rejected - "cut off":

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined(see below) .

So we see in Romans:

Rom 9:27-28 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

So we know then that 3 1/2 years into the last 7 years (the 70th week) Jesus was "cut off", the "restoration to righteousness" of Israel was NOT completed:

Rom 9:30-31 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

for they sought it by works and not by faith.

BUT, God is not through with His people yet:

Rom 11:1-2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

There is yet to be a day for them:

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

And that day is:

om 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

and the ones to whom the message of the Gospel will be delivered is:

Rom 11:30-31 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Now if you will note, there is no mention anywhere in the NT about SEVEN years, only the 3 1/2 years mentioned in Revelation. Many try to combine two of those references to equal 7 years, but each one can be seen to reference the same time frame. They are not consecutive, but run parallel with each other.

NOTE:

and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined

Think of these verses:

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Rev 12:15-16 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Does it make better sense?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[BlindSeeker]

. . . BlindSeeker- What does Cyrus have to do with this? I am very familiar with all those verses. He only gave the decree to rebuild the Temple but it was done by Nehemiah and Ezra (as I'm sure you know).

Cyrus over throuhg many nations, as well as Babylon itself.

Being foretold in scripture, Cyrus could be called God's man though he was not a man of God at the time . . . therefore his men could be called the people of God even though they themselves were not righteous people.

Cyrus and his army was God's man and God's people for the task at hand.

[Brad]

(Brad; I don't want to hear your "spiritual" interpretation)

There is such a thing as OVER spiritualizing....and you are doing it.

Now I'm begining to understand how Jesus felt when he said this

John 6

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

[Guest yod]

I truly love you, did you know that? I find our debates a challenge - sometimes frustrating - but nonetheless we are able to communicate amicably.

:::::blushes::::::

will you marry me?

Don't make me dispute every little word.

"Not one jot, not one tittle shall pass away till all is accomplished." "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word shall never pass away." and

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Remember these? Need I say more?

Let me fire a couple back at cha'

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

or how about this one?

Proverbs 17:27

He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

See? I'm cool because I'm restraining from studying words!?!!?!

1. The people of the prince

God has always used other nations to both bless (Cyrus - as Blindseeker pointed out) and curse Israel. It was the Romans who came and ultimately destroyed the temple (hieron) in 70 A.D.

I'm with you there.

I believe "the prince" is probably referring to:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

AHA!

You know I don't like "problies". This could be "that" prince....but there is LOTS of room for it to be something or someone else....

QUOTE 

4. How can this be anyone but the Romans since they are the ones who destroyed the city and the sanctuary?

Isn't that what I said?

Here is where I'm confused. Yes, you said that...but why couldn't the "prince to come" be Roman?

I would genuinely like to know what you think. It doesn't make any sense to me yet. 

Are we agree yet?

ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US

(I'd be interested in knowing if anyone understood that last sentence of mine)

[Guest yod]

Now I'm begining to understand how Jesus felt when he said this

Ahhh....poor Brad. Are the literalists picking on you again?

I know you think that was an insult but actually it was a spiritual compliment.

Do you know I love you too??? (but only spiritually)

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

will you marry me?

What? And spoil a perfect relationship? In Christ, you are a "friend who is closer than a brother."

Let me fire a couple back at cha'

2 Timothy 2:14  Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 

or how about this one?

Proverbs 17:27

He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

See? I'm cool because I'm restraining from studying words!?!!?!

I'm really glad you know better than that. Paul confronted Peter, after Peter started veering toward the "circumcision". Paul also talked about others he had had a following out with. I probably would have sided with Paul. I can just see 12 year old Jesus TEACHING the scribes and the Sanhedrin about the Word of God. They were ALL amazed at His wisdom. How many times did He confront those with false doctrines, even Peter?

AHA! 

You know I don't like "problies". This could be "that" prince....but there is LOTS of room for it to be something or someone else....

Since the NT is the "revelation" of the OT, I see no other connection in the NT to Daniel's prophecies regarding "the prince which was to come". But as I have demonstrated, it was ONLY a modifier of the word "people" in Dan 9:27. The "he" refers to the Messiah and that should settle the matter.

Here is where I'm confused. Yes, you said that...but why couldn't the "prince to come" be Roman?

Which books of the Bible do you think were written AFTER 70 A.D.? Don't you think mention of "the prince" would have been made if it were a person? I put credence in what Josephus reported in his "Wars" and thought it was certainly the "people of Rome" that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, it was instigated by God Himself - the Messiah - who also prophesied of it.

ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US

Please elaborate.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Adstar]

ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US

I think that came from a computer game Yod It may have been command and conquer? I think one of the programmers was from Taiwan and did not have a good grasp of English.

John 2

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers' money and overturned the tables. 16And He said to those who sold doves, "Take these things away! Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise!" 17Then His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up."18So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?" 19Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days