Tyler Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 The statement that we are all responsible for Jesus' crucifixtion is of course only accurate in a certain context, that being a rather spiritual one. In a sense I suppose that could also come back to the "chosen". Would God have had to allow all of that if they had fulfilled God's purpose for them as the chosen? But realistically speaking and in the historical and physical context, there is absolutely no doubt who was most responsible for His death. It's clearly recorded and it is only those who are in a state of denial that even dispute the fact or try to pass the buck. My sins may have been why God in love sent His Son, but I was not one of those who stood before Pilot and yelled "crucify Him". Are you saying that only the Jews are responsible?? Are you saying had you been living in Christ's time, you would of recognized Jesus as the Son of God right away? Many learned men of great intellectual background, failed to recognize Christ as Lord, but you would of?? A person needs to humble oneself and take an honest look at Christ's crucifixion! We are indeed ALL GUILTY of putting Christ on the cross! The Old Jewish bashing statement, that the Jews killed Christ, does not hold any water to the ones who are HONESTLY seeking the truth!! You indeed did not stand before the cross and yell "crucify Him". However your Sinful life put Him there, and you are just as guilty as the Romans and the Jews! Only Christ Saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Benny Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 To deny that the Jews killed Christ is calling Peter and Steven liers. They both said it strait out. And to deny it, is to call the book of Acts as well as the Gospels a fraud. Try to explain that to the lord one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneAccord Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 147 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,587 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 Are you saying had you been living in Christ's time, you would of recognized Jesus as the Son of God right away? Many learned men of great intellectual background, failed to recognize Christ as Lord, but you would of?? There's probably a very good chance he would have recognized Jesus. There were multitudes thronging Jesus at all times during His ministry, who were not great intellectual but had a simple faith, esp. with the evidence of signs and wonders as well as inspired teaching and preaching. The major strongholds of disbelief were in the inner religious circles of elite priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 To deny that the Jews killed Christ is calling Peter and Steven liers. They both said it strait out. And to deny it, is to call the book of Acts as well as the Gospels a fraud. Try to explain that to the lord one day. Actually, Peter is saying what Tyler and I are saying. On the day of Pentecost when Peter says these things, there were Jews from 16 different nations. They were not all at the Pilates Porch yelling for Christ to be crucified. Recent archeology tells us that at the most, it would only held 500 people, and that is if they were standing shoulder to shoulder with no room to walk around. It was only Jesus detractors and perhaps their disciples that were calling for His death. In all likelyhood, it was relatively small number. The fact that so many of the regular people loved him, the fact that Jesus trial had to held in secret for fear that the people would riot to prevent his death, indicates that his detractors were in the minority. That precludes the argument that the "Jews" collectively share the repsonsibility for His death. There may have been some individual Jews who were instrumental in influencing the outcome, but that is a far cry from all Jews being responsible. Peter was indicting all of us as repsosible for His death. The Jews who heard Peter's sermon were not in front of Pilate calling for His death. Most of them were probably still on their way to the city for Passover. Yet, Peter indicts them as he does us. Their sin put Jesus on the cross just like ours did. They crucified Jesus, and we crucified Jesus. Were it not for the forgivenss of God, we would all bear responsibility before the throne. Benny you really do not like Jews, do you? You have posted nothing derogatory statements about Jews since you have been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 You indeed did not stand before the cross and yell "crucify Him". However your Sinful life put Him there, and you are just as guilty No, you are wrong about that. The ones who did the deed are the guilty ones. I may have sins, but this was not one of them. I don't think your argument would hold any water in a court of law. The ones who knowingly brought false charges to bear and then yelled "crucify Him" are the ones directly responsible. What you are talking about is an indirect responsibility that is not directly linked by a deliberate premeditated act to have Christ crucified. The decision to crucify came down to a traditional good will jesture to the Jews in which they and they alone were given the direct choice, and we all know what happened. It's not my fault that they happened to be Jews. If they were Patagonians, it wouldn't be any different, the Patagonians would be the ones to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 To deny that the Jews killed Christ is calling Peter and Steven liers. They both said it strait out. And to deny it, is to call the book of Acts as well as the Gospels a fraud. Try to explain that to the lord one day. Try to explain to the Lord that only the Jews were responsible for the Crucifixion of Christ!? That somehow Christ's sacrifice wasn't needed by you because you are a "good person"! You are no different than I, a wretched sinner before the eyes of the Lord ,who desperately needed Christs sacrifice on the cross so that we may be saved!! hence Christ died for you and I PERSONALLY!! Do you understand what that means?? It is because WE are, Both of us, unworthy of God's MERCY! Yet God so loved us that He gave His only begotten Son to be slain upon a cross, so that those who believe in Him may live!! You and I both caused Christ's crucifixion, do deny this is to say you were in no need of the CROSS! Try to explain that to the Lord one day. Only Christ Saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 You indeed did not stand before the cross and yell "crucify Him". However your Sinful life put Him there, and you are just as guilty No, you are wrong about that. The ones who did the deed are the guilty ones. I may have sins, but this was not one of them. I don't think your argument would hold any water in a court of law. The ones who knowingly brought false charges to bear and then yelled "crucify Him" are the ones directly responsible. What you are talking about is an indirect responsibility that is not directly linked by a deliberate premeditated act to have Christ crucified. I.S. your term "indirect responsibility" is tantomount to manslaughter in many states and provinces!! Christ died for YOU PERSONALLY on the cross! It was our sins that put Him there, WE are all guilty!! No one can say that they are good and in no need of the Sacrifice at Cavalry..."indirect responsibility"=Manslaughter=Guilt! Another reason why we should be all the more thankful for such a Loving Saviour! Only Christ Saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 Â Are you saying had you been living in Christ's time, you would of recognized Jesus as the Son of God right away? Â Many learned men of great intellectual background, failed to recognize Christ as Lord, but you would of?? There's probably a very good chance he would have recognized Jesus. There were multitudes thronging Jesus at all times during His ministry, who were not great intellectual but had a simple faith, esp. with the evidence of signs and wonders as well as inspired teaching and preaching. The major strongholds of disbelief were in the inner religious circles of elite priests. Your probably right One Accord, but to say without a doubt that you would act one way or another is going a bit far! Did not Peter tell Christ he would NEVER deny Him?? Chances and Absolutes are two different things. Only Christ Saves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I.S. your term "indirect responsibility" is tantomount to manslaughter in many states and provinces!! Christ died for YOU PERSONALLY on the cross! It was our sins that put Him there, WE are all guilty!! No one can say that they are good and in no need of the Sacrifice at Cavalry..."indirect responsibility"=Manslaughter=Guilt! Another reason why we should be all the more thankful for such a Loving Saviour! Only Christ Saves But I think you would agree that this is somewhat different in that my sins were not in any way associated with the pre-meditated crime of lying and deceiving in order to have an innocent man named Jesus put to death. How would you prove in a court of law that totally unrelated sins were responsible? Remember, we aren't talking about why Christ had to do what he did or the reasons for that, we are talking about the actual deeds of the ones who perpetrated a very definite and specific crime. Now, those Jews that were being deceitful, there was evidence of this, it wasn't purely spiritual. An actual maliscious crime took place that had very definite intent and I had nothing whatsoever to do with that. The kind of implication you make is guilt by proxy or in other words, mankind all becomes guilty because of the sins of a few of us. No matter what you say it will not change history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted December 16, 2003 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2003 I.S. your term "indirect responsibility" is tantomount to manslaughter in many states and provinces!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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