Guest Biblicist Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Hello again, Brothers and Sisters, I hope someone, anyone on the boards, not just Catholics, can answer this question. I think it's relative to the conversation. I am wondering about the OT saints again. How did they come to "salvation" as stated in another thread? http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?show...amp;hl=Solomon] By the way, thanks truster for answering my question so completely. And Biblically. Was that salvation from childhood, something taught to them by their parents that they just believed? Did they believed what was taught in the Scrolls of Isaiah, that there was a coming Messiah?. Was their salvation something that they worked on their entire lives, in the case of Solomon falling away and then having to repent at the end? Oh I guess that's more than one question. I hope I am not being to confusing, if you bare with me and help to answer this question, I think it will become clear in the end. Thanks, in advance, for your patience with me. In His Mighty Grip, Bib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Biblicist, Love the feminine smilie you added for clarification....sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 NO! I'm not saying "we" are better Christians or more "worthy of heaven" at all. I apologize if it came across that way. What I am saying is that the Catholic understanding of what is means to attain salvation has more depth than many Protestant declarations of the "say the sinner's prayer and you're in" variety---especially the OSAS camp. We too believe that it is only thru Christ that we are saved. But we do see salvation as more of a process and less of an event than most Protestants. We take Matthew 25:31-46 very seriously. Peace, Fiosh Re: "Not a brother" OOPS! Sorry, sister. Ok, no offence taken. I have known many Catholics that practice the "say confession once a week and we can do whatever we like the rest of the time" belief. It is difficult not to fall into that sort of pattern with Satan telling us it's OK. I believe that salvation can be obtained instantaneously and retained without works unto Heaven. The thief on the cross, did not believe in Christ till the moment he hung on the cross. It wasn't till he realized that Christ was without blame and hung there anyway that he believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. And Christ said to him. "This day will you be with me in Paradise." The thief did no works, he was dying. I am sure he did not shout proclamations about Christ from his respective cross. He certainly couldn't feed the poor or clothe the "naked" or heal the sick. He didn't even get baptized. All he did was believe. There are many who have, since, made death bed conversions. They are no less saved than those who have spent years doing the Lords work. Mind you, I do not believe that we can do whatever we wish. We must live life without reproof. We are to be the Light of the world, for we may be the only Jesus they ever see. If you have the opportunity to share Jesus with someone, through actions or words, it is your responsibility to do so. This conversation means a great deal to me. My father and his parents were strict RCC. It was not till late in his life that my father realized his need for a personal relationship with the Saviour. Praise the Lord. In His Mighty Grip, Bib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 28, 2006 NO! I'm not saying "we" are better Christians or more "worthy of heaven" at all. I apologize if it came across that way. What I am saying is that the Catholic understanding of what is means to attain salvation has more depth than many Protestant declarations of the "say the sinner's prayer and you're in" variety---especially the OSAS camp. We too believe that it is only thru Christ that we are saved. But we do see salvation as more of a process and less of an event than most Protestants. We take Matthew 25:31-46 very seriously. Peace, Fiosh Re: "Not a brother" OOPS! Sorry, sister. Ok, no offence taken. I have known many Catholics that practice the "say confession once a week and we can do whatever we like the rest of the time" belief. It is difficult not to fall into that sort of pattern with Satan telling us it's OK. I believe that salvation can be obtained instantaneously and retained without works unto Heaven. The thief on the cross, did not believe in Christ till the moment he hung on the cross. It wasn't till he realized that Christ was without blame and hung there anyway that he believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. And Christ said to him. "This day will you be with me in Paradise." The thief did no works, he was dying. I am sure he did not shout proclamations about Christ from his respective cross. He certainly couldn't feed the poor or clothe the "naked" or heal the sick. He didn't even get baptized. All he did was believe. There are many who have, since, made death bed conversions. They are no less saved than those who have spent years doing the Lords work. Mind you, I do not believe that we can do whatever we wish. We must live life without reproof. We are to be the Light of the world, for we may be the only Jesus they ever see. If you have the opportunity to share Jesus with someone, through actions or words, it is your responsibility to do so. This conversation means a great deal to me. My father and his parents were strict RCC. It was not till late in his life that my father realized his need for a personal relationship with the Saviour. Praise the Lord. In His Mighty Grip, Bib God bless you, Bib! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 NO! I'm not saying "we" are better Christians or more "worthy of heaven" at all. I apologize if it came across that way. What I am saying is that the Catholic understanding of what is means to attain salvation has more depth than many Protestant declarations of the "say the sinner's prayer and you're in" variety---especially the OSAS camp. We too believe that it is only thru Christ that we are saved. But we do see salvation as more of a process and less of an event than most Protestants. We take Matthew 25:31-46 very seriously. Peace, Fiosh Re: "Not a brother" OOPS! Sorry, sister. Ok, no offence taken. I have known many Catholics that practice the "say confession once a week and we can do whatever we like the rest of the time" belief. It is difficult not to fall into that sort of pattern with Satan telling us it's OK. Actually, it is the Protestant that has the "easier" time rationalizing the "do whatever you want and confess it later" philosophy. You can simply kneel in the dark behind your locked door and confess----sin gone! You think it's easy to sit next to your Pastor and discuss your sin? (I don't do the "box" thing---we talk face to face these days) No, you guys definitely have it easier. Not to mention that without a "firm purpose of amendment" you cannot seek forgiveness. I believe that salvation can be obtained instantaneously and retained without works unto Heaven. The thief on the cross, did not believe in Christ till the moment he hung on the cross. It wasn't till he realized that Christ was without blame and hung there anyway that he believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. And Christ said to him. "This day will you be with me in Paradise." The thief did no works, he was dying. I am sure he did not shout proclamations about Christ from his respective cross. He certainly couldn't feed the poor or clothe the "naked" or heal the sick. He didn't even get baptized. All he did was believe. There are many who have, since, made death bed conversions. They are no less saved than those who have spent years doing the Lords work. Mind you, I do not believe that we can do whatever we wish. We must live life without reproof. We are to be the Light of the world, for we may be the only Jesus they ever see. If you have the opportunity to share Jesus with someone, through actions or words, it is your responsibility to do so. Very well said, and I agree. And the thief did the very most he was able to do to live out the Gospel. He made a decision to trust Jesus and proclaimed it from his own cross. We are all called to "take up our cross" and follow Him to the best of our ability. This means something different for each of us. This conversation means a great deal to me. My father and his parents were strict RCC. It was not till late in his life that my father realized his need for a personal relationship with the Saviour. Praise the Lord. To be a Catholic IS to realize the need for a personal relationship with Jesus. It is what the RCC teaches. Unfortunately, in the past, the Church has not been effective in putting that forth. However, with the "revival" of the charismatic movement in the RCC, it is once again in the forefront of the faith. Catholics don't have the market cornered on folks who haven't realized the need to totally submit their lives to Christ, and to live in relationship with our Saviour. In His Mighty Grip, Bib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Actually, it is the Protestant that has the "easier" time rationalizing the "do whatever you want and confess it later" philosophy. You can simply kneel in the dark behind your locked door and confess----sin gone! You think it's easy to sit next to your Pastor and discuss your sin? (I don't do the "box" thing---we talk face to face these days) I learned just recently it is easier to talk to my pastor about my sin, because he is human too and has sin just like the rest of mankind. No, you guys definitely have it easier. Not to mention that without a "firm purpose of amendment" you cannot seek forgiveness. I know from personal experience that it is NOT easy to admit a sin to the High and Holy Priest, Jesus Christ. There are many times in scripture when Christ himself tells us to pray in secret. That prayers that can be heard by others are something that the Pagans do. Matthew 6:1-8 is just one example. What do you mean by "firm purpose of amendment"? Are you talking about repentance? This conversation means a great deal to me. My father and his parents were strict RCC. It was not till late in his life that my father realized his need for a personal relationship with the Saviour. Praise the Lord. To be a Catholic IS to realize the need for a personal relationship with Jesus. That is not what my father was taught. It is what the RCC teaches. Unfortunately, in the past, the Church has not been effective in putting that forth. However, with the "revival" of the charismatic movement in the RCC, it is once again in the forefront of the faith. Catholics don't have the market cornered on folks who haven't realized the need to totally submit their lives to Christ, and to live in relationship with our Saviour. That is true, many churches have gotten away from the basics of faith. Saddly. They try to make church a place of entertainment rather than a hospital for wounded and dying souls. In His Mighty Grip, Bib Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 28, 2006 No, you guys definitely have it easier. Not to mention that without a "firm purpose of amendment" you cannot seek forgiveness. What in tarnation does this mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Actually, it is the Protestant that has the "easier" time rationalizing the "do whatever you want and confess it later" philosophy. You can simply kneel in the dark behind your locked door and confess----sin gone! You think it's easy to sit next to your Pastor and discuss your sin? (I don't do the "box" thing---we talk face to face these days) I learned just recently it is easier to talk to my pastor about my sin, because he is human too and has sin just like the rest of mankind. No, you guys definitely have it easier. Not to mention that without a "firm purpose of amendment" you cannot seek forgiveness. I know from personal experience that it is NOT easy to admit a sin to the High and Holy Priest, Jesus Christ. There are many times in scripture when Christ himself tells us to pray in secret. That prayers that can be heard by others are something that the Pagans do. Matthew 6:1-8 is just one example. What do you mean by "firm purpose of amendment"? Are you talking about repentance? This conversation means a great deal to me. My father and his parents were strict RCC. It was not till late in his life that my father realized his need for a personal relationship with the Saviour. Praise the Lord. To be a Catholic IS to realize the need for a personal relationship with Jesus. That is not what my father was taught. It is what the RCC teaches. Unfortunately, in the past, the Church has not been effective in putting that forth. However, with the "revival" of the charismatic movement in the RCC, it is once again in the forefront of the faith. Catholics don't have the market cornered on folks who haven't realized the need to totally submit their lives to Christ, and to live in relationship with our Saviour. That is true, many churches have gotten away from the basics of faith. Saddly. They try to make church a place of entertainment rather than a hospital for wounded and dying souls. In His Mighty Grip, Bib RE: "prayers that can be heard by others are something that the Pagans do" Only if the motivation is to impress man. In the New Testament, the disciples often prayed together. Even Jesus prayed in public. RE: confession to a priest Well, then you are very different from me. Jesus already knows my sin and loves me in spite of it; so when I confess in private to my Lord, though it grieves me that I have offended Him, I am not nearly as "humiliated" as when I have to confess to a human being. RE: "firm purpose of amendment" In order to approach God to ask forgiveness, one must have to intent to try not to repeat the sin. For example, if my sin is drunkeness, I can't go to confession with plans to go to the bar and get wasted as soon as I leave Church. If I am not truly sorry for my sin and do not try my best to turn from it, I can't expect to be forgiven. RE: "To be a Catholic IS to realize the need for a personal relationship with Jesus. That is not what my father was taught." If so, that's sad. Then again, it may be that you have a different approach to "relationship" than some Catholics. The RCC has a very Biblical understanding of what it means to live in "relationship" to God thru Jesus. The phrase, "you must accept Jesus as your Personal Saviour" does not appear in the Bible. What the Bible says is that we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, leading to obedience to God's will, love of neighbor, self-denial and servanthood----which are an indication of discipleship----of our life in Christ. I could give you a great link to an article about personal relationship with Jesus, with lots of Scripture references, but it's against WB policy to post Catholic website links. If you want it, PM me. Peace, Fiosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 without a "firm purpose of amendment" you cannot seek forgiveness. What in tarnation does this mean? (see my previous post for more detail) ...but basically it means that God is not mocked. When I ask forgiveness I must make a serious commitment to turn from my sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat8585 Posted December 28, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,360 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 7,866 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/22/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1946 Share Posted December 28, 2006 I used to work with a dyed-in-the-wool Catholic--I mean, he was as Catholic as it gets. But he liked to drink. He thought it was ok to get wasted on the weekend, then go to confession and everything was ok, every week. What's wrong with this picture? How does a Catholic differentiate between a sin and a mortal sin, from the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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