Kansasdad Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted October 11, 2006 That would be a major difference between you and me. I know that my doctrines are correct and will not change. That is not arrogance. It is my faith in Jesus' promise that the Holy Spirit will lead His Church to all truth. If you know your doctrines are correct and will not change, then you are not likely to ever second guess yourself or look at the doctrines objectively, as I had asked a few posts back. I would add that the difference is between you and me is that I know the Bible and my God will not change. Man-made doctrines will change. Eating meat on Fridays is a good example. I understand the current Pope is also wondering about going back to completely Latin masses and no more folk music or modern music, only the old-time hymns. This is the second time you have said this. It is news to me. Where did you get this. I have very serious doubts on this one, you might want to question your source of information. God Bless, K.D. I just read about what the Pope is doing concerning the old Latin Mass. He is not changing the current Mass back to the old Latin Mass, rather he is allowing those Priest that want to give an old Latin mass to do so. He is going to lift the restriction that is currently in place. This will in no way effect the current Mass. It will only provide an opprotunity for a broader experience for those who so desire. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 What do you see when you look upon your image of Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Why would a mass in latin be beneficial to anyone? It is a dead language, after all. Seems like an exercise in religiosity to me. As we are called to reach the nations for Christ, I see no evangelical reason for it whatsoever...who is going to be reached for salvation in Jesus Christ using a dead language? Who or what is served in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 Why would a mass in latin be beneficial to anyone? It is a dead language, after all. Seems like an exercise in religiosity to me. As we are called to reach the nations for Christ, I see no evangelical reason for it whatsoever...who is going to be reached for salvation in Jesus Christ using a dead language? Who or what is served in it? Hi floatingaxe, We actually had a Latin Mass at my church until about 30 years ago. It was not all Latin; only certain parts of the liturgy. Catholics know the words to the "Lord Have Mercy", "Gloria", "Creed", "Holy, Holy, Holy", and "Lamb of God". So we know exactly what we are singing. If there is any doubt, we have Mass books in the pews. And it was one of three services, so people could choose to attend a totally English Mass. Latin is an awesome language to put to music. Using Latin for certain parts of the liturgy is a way to praise God with beautiful music. If you ever get the chance to hear Latin being sung, you'll understand. Who is served? God. Peace, Fiosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2006 Why would a mass in latin be beneficial to anyone? It is a dead language, after all. Seems like an exercise in religiosity to me. As we are called to reach the nations for Christ, I see no evangelical reason for it whatsoever...who is going to be reached for salvation in Jesus Christ using a dead language? Who or what is served in it? Latin is very much alive in our language today, so I wouldn't call it "dead". Before Vatican II all the Masses anywhere in the world were in Latin. So if an American went to Russia and attended mass they would know exactly what was going on. This was another example of a unfied Church. After Vatican II each country could have mass said in their respective languages. However, Latin is still the unfied Language spoken in the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 The Catholic Church does not worship any of the photos or statues, but use them as a tool to bring them closer to God. Do you see God when you look at that image of Christ? When I look at an image of Christ I see an artist's depiction of what he/she imagines Christ looks like. And this "artist's depiction" is what brings you closer to God? In a sense I suppose you could say that. Let me give you a real life example: In the entry of our church (I call it the vestibule) there is a life-sized Crucifix. That is, a cross with a statue depicting the crucified Christ. Every time I pass it, I kiss my fingers and touch them to the feet of the statue. In my heart I pray, " Dear Jesus, please forgive me for my sins that nailed you to that cross", or something similar. I KNOW the wood and plaster are not Jesus. But the crucifix calls to mind in a very vivid way the suffering of Jesus for my sake. I pray to the real Jesus, even though I kiss the statue as a symbol of my love and repentance. You may disagree and tell me that is wrong. But you cannot say that I am worshiping the statue. I know my own heart. Peace, Fiosh I bumped this one up for man. Man, we already had this conversation. F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2006 The Catholic Church does not worship any of the photos or statues, but use them as a tool to bring them closer to God. Do you see God when you look at that image of Christ? When I look at an image of Christ I see an artist's depiction of what he/she imagines Christ looks like. And this "artist's depiction" is what brings you closer to God? In a sense I suppose you could say that. Let me give you a real life example: In the entry of our church (I call it the vestibule) there is a life-sized Crucifix. That is, a cross with a statue depicting the crucified Christ. Every time I pass it, I kiss my fingers and touch them to the feet of the statue. In my heart I pray, " Dear Jesus, please forgive me for my sins that nailed you to that cross", or something similar. I KNOW the wood and plaster are not Jesus. But the crucifix calls to mind in a very vivid way the suffering of Jesus for my sake. I pray to the real Jesus, even though I kiss the statue as a symbol of my love and repentance. You may disagree and tell me that is wrong. But you cannot say that I am worshiping the statue. I know my own heart. Peace, Fiosh I bumped this one up for man. Man, we already had this conversation. F Oh MAN here we go again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hi Fiosh and others. Haven't been here much. I'm sure it's an interesting discussion and wish I had time to read all of the comments. Had a few questions for you though. I'll try to make sure i get back here for the answers too, if you want to answer them. A hypothetical scenario if you will indulge me. A child is shipwrecked alone on an island at 2 years old. Miraculously, the child survives. Even more miraculously, the child is able to read! (okay, it's far fetched too. ) Anyway, at 16 years of age he discovers a Bible and begins to study it. 1) With the Bible as his ONLY source of the knowledge of God, do you think this boy would beleive that Mary remained a virgin? And why? (and please don't tell me that Joseph had sons previously or anything else that is not mentioned in scripture) Remember, he has ONLY scripture to go by. No one is telling him anything. I simply want to know why this young man would believe that Mary STAYED a virgin. 2) Would he read the scriptures and beleive that he needed to talk to dead people to be intercessors of his prayers? If yes, what verse or verses would reveal this to him? 3) If he read scriptures and was able to understand metaphors in scripture and was able to articulate that Jesus was never really a lamb and Peter was never really a rock, do you think he would come to the conclusion that when Jesus picked up wine and said "this is my blood" that the wine may not have really been Jesus blood? I would also like to know 4) Were you raised a Catholic? 5) Since becoming a Catholic, have you ever questioned your beleifs? Do you ever wonder if you're wrong? 6) If yes, how often? 7) Do you ever ask God to show you if you are wrong? Hi Artsylady, I posed your questions to another Catholic that I know---one much wiser and articulate than myself. Here is his response: "I have a few thoughts but only a short time... 1) He may very well believe that Mary did not remain a Virgin. But, if he had a high enough intellect to understand the meaning of the word "until" as used in the other parts of the bible and could remember and relate that meaning, and had other books of the Fathers, and also such writings as "The Protoeveangelism of St James" that helped him understand the belief of the centuries following Christ, then, YES - he may very well believe she DID remain a virgin. 2 Dead people - Need to research... 3) "This is my Body" - Yes - People didn't leave Jesus because he said he was a door. If he could speak English and also understand Aramaic, he would understand that eating in the verses when they ran away is translated as gnawing, as on meat. It would be pretty obvious to him that Jesus was saying "This is My Body". Did I ever ask God to show me if I'm wrong? NO - I ask God to keep leading me into all truth, just as He stated the Holy Spirit would lead His church into all truth. Since I cannot see thousands of different Protestant denominations having one truth, like telling me how I am saved, I can only accept the church that has one truth. Now - hypothetically, if the boy had the Bible and the writings of the Early Fathers (those only taught by the Apostles), which clearly states a church Hierarchy, believe in the Eucharist ("This is My Body"), the Didache (known as the Teachings of the Apostles and used as an early Catechism. Historians believe it may have been developed at the "first Apostolic Council, c.50 C.E. ---Acts 15:28"),with Liturgy resembling the Catholic mass, etc., he would most likely have beliefs in line with the Catholic Church. Why? Because he has an understanding of the Bible translation of the Church at the time of the Apostles and immediately after their death. By the way, the thin book containing the writings of the Early Fathers has been a Catalyst of many Protestant Ministers conversion to the Catholic Faith. Oh! I was just wondering about one more item. Would the boy gouge out his eye or cut off his hand if they caused him to sin. You see, we need information for proper translation. Would he believe creation occurred two different ways. Would he believe the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are correct? (they disagree with each other and both are not historically correct). " Peace, Fiosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 a few more comments from my Catholic friend.... And if the boy just read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Oh MAN here we go again... What do you see when you look at your image of Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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