Magic

[heartofstone]

I don't believe that there is no "magic" The comment earlier about not trusting God is accurate, but really the question about why would God invent this if not allowed to use it is the basis of the comments. If you take the opinion that God wouldn't invent something that He doesn't allow to be misused, then alcohol, wine, sex, food, emotions, faith are all in that category. If we as Christians believe the Bible is true, then Pharoah's magicians must be accurate when described that they did magical things, and then we must believe revalation when it says anti-christ's false prophets will do signs and wonders. Magic is the manipulation of natural forces to supernatural results. The Bible is replete with supernatural occurences, why would it be such a stretch to say that satan, his minions et al are able to imitate the supernatural occurences that God does, just like the reference to pharoah's magicians did back then?

Magic, if it exists, is different to alchohol and things which men made. It would be an innate part of the world, not somthing created out of it like cars or buildings. So if magic was always there, why create a human being who is able to manipulate natural forces into the supernatural?

I don't believe that human beings can do anything that's "magic" at all. I think that perhaps the term came about from wonders or signs that demons (aka fallen angels) can or have done and humans have no manipulation of their environments to such a degree that what the demons do becomes that much of a mystery to them that it's easily explained away as magic. I don't know what demons can do in affecting weather patterns or geological effects but say that some guy (through whom a demon was really working) just waved his hand and then some clouds appeared in the sky and everything went dark. Humans would be amazed and fascinated by this man, thinking him a god or demi-god even. Ok, I don't mean to be sounding silly, but that's seriously how I perceive the human take on things "magic" or abnormal for them, not something they can do. And humans can't do anything like that, we can't snap our fingers and summon an object to our sides, and we can't make fire appear out of nowhere in our palms. But I think a sign like that which could possibly for whatever reason be simple work for a demon is enough to amaze a human being and to deceive him/her into believing that there is such a thing as magic. My point is that I dont believe in the idea that there's any kind of force out there that humans can wield or manipulate which God just doesnt allow for them to have because He's mean and wants all the power to himself.

Rather, it's because this whole magic deal can be horribly misleading, causing many to go astray and the fact is that when they "practice magic" they are really being deceived by demons who only perform certain fantastical acts just to deceive the weak-minded humans who would love to believe that they can have some form of supernatural power. And, as far as I know, real "magic" isn't even anything like HP and how other similar books portray it. For all that I've read, seen or heard about the stuff today's witches do, it's all laughable, in a mean way, because they might mix potions or just light candles and chant. What kind of magic is that? It's silly, it does not provide immediate results (at least like the HP wizards/witches do) and isn't as cool as having a wand and saying a few words might be (which is silly to me too 'cause why does it have to be those words and in Latin too? ). With the stuff "real witches" have to do today just to get a spell to work it seems obvious and proof that all they're really doing is making supplications to some demon spirit (spirit because they aren't encased in a fleshly body as we are) to do the deed for them.

And I agree about the part that magic just leads people away from God, they are deceived not enlightened, because it can make them think they're appealing to power they can use, probably for other reasons too, but they're just becoming enslaved to demons, that's all.

Edited October 24, 2006 by heartofstone

[Joshua-777]

Very real, From my experience, I have been involved in wicca, and witchcraft, also demonism. What I have come to understand, is They are all harnessing energy to cause yoru own will, but what gives you the power to do so is ultimently demonic. Magic is somthing very dangerious, and wicked to play with. And all forms connect into one. The power of the Lord Jesus Christ is more power than we can ever imagine, and his blood covers all, and cleanses all.

[Guest willing servant]

I talked with a preacher once who lives near a privately owned feild where once a year there is a witches convention, he says the music is so loud it thumps in his house, and its a good 3/4 miles away. He was talking about the music, and the question come up, if he believed that magic is a viable possibility. The only answer he would make is that he believes that Satan is capable of much, and that the danger isn't in the magic itself, or the spells or whatever, but the fact that they are not of God. When people get wrapped up in this stuff, they start saying yes to the world, and no to God. Look at ISA 30, after Israel trusts in the shadow of Egypt and pharoah, soon enough, they ask the prophets to lie to them, and ask the seers to see not, to finish up the request that 'the holy one of Israel cease from before them.'

Its scary buisness, moving away from God....

peace

crabs><>

You say satan is capable of much. God the father is capable of much much more. I have a friend who is a practicing witch/Wiccan. I talked to him at length because he was a good man and I was trying to get him to see what he was doing was wrong. People don't understand why it is wrong, I didn't even understand it till I read this post. Then god talked to me... so let me tell you. The casting of spells means you are trying to do something WITHOUT GODS MANDATE. Or following his will. You are taking control of your life ..... without god. Thefore ultimately rejecting Jesus christ and God.

[StewartP]

Very real, From my experience, I have been involved in wicca, and witchcraft, also demonism. What I have come to understand, is They are all harnessing energy to cause yoru own will, but what gives you the power to do so is ultimently demonic. Magic is somthing very dangerious, and wicked to play with. And all forms connect into one. The power of the Lord Jesus Christ is more power than we can ever imagine, and his blood covers all, and cleanses all.

Very non-existant, from my experience.

Harnessing energy? I presume it can be measured then. Whenever I meet someone who claims to be wiccan or into whitchcraft I dare them to prove it. Do something to me. Curse me, or something. Change something. C'mon, good old traditional witchcraft - change this mouse into a frog.

No can do?

Ok, I've got something simpler and even more trad witchcraft. See this wart on my leg? charm it away.

No? oh dear. Seems whitchypoo can't get his magic to work in the face of a skeptic.

Witchcraft! Ha! I laugh at it.

[StewartP]

Deleted by user - posted in wrong thread - doh!

Edited November 5, 2006 by StewartP

[Guest GWG]

"Strobel's journalism: Strobel did not interview any critics of Christian apologetics, even though he attacks such individuals in his book.[2] For example, Strobel devotes an entire chapter to his interview of Greg Boyd (an outspoken faultfinder of the Jesus Seminar), yet Strobel never interviewed a single member of the Jesus Seminar itself!

Likewise, he repeatedly criticizes Michael Martin, author of Case Against Christianity, but he never bothered to get Martin's responses to those attacks."

I agree. This is the only fallacy I find in The Case for Christ. But, these evidences are only the things that saved him. You might not be so convinced by them but he was. Now, since I am not a scholar or historian I cannot at present remark back to your last post. Not because there is nothing else but because I haven't had time to study.

Go With God,

GWG

Edited December 1, 2006 by GWG

[Observer of dreams]

I have many beliefs about magic, but none that I will share here. I got 2 words "self fulfilling prophecy".......oh wait, that's three words........anyways self fulfilling prophecy or selfulprop lol. is defined as follows;

self-fulfilling prophecy, a concept developed by Robert K. Merton to explain how a belief or expectation, whether correct or not, affects the outcome of a situation or the way a person (or group) will behave. Thus, for example, labeling someone a criminal, and treating that person as such, may foster criminal behavior in the person who is subjected to the expectation.

So I want my wife to get hurt I therefore wax the floor one fay without telling her, or accidentally leave the toaster in the bathtub...by mistake.....anyways you get the idea.

Or I may want to get into an argument with someone here and tell them they are not a spelling teacher and subconciously spell the word day wrong in the sentence above.

Edited December 2, 2006 by Observer of dreams

[billie]

[Smalcald]

Christians believe in a Spirit World the numinous as Lewis called it.

So to tap into that world in a way that does not include Christ means that you are tapping somehow into something else, something not of Christ in rebellion to Christ. I think this is the problem for Christians in fooling around with the occult or magic etc. Some of it of course IS just fooling around astrology for example, but some of it for example trying to contact the dead or dead spirits, or trying to use curses or spells or anything else in the Spirit world, this would be very dangerous.

Christian scripture allows that we humans are in a struggle against a spiritual host of darkness.

But I don't have a problem with most fantasy in literature etc, which is a separate issue. Lewis and Tolkin both made great use of fantasy in their literature.

[Rebmilc]

To answer the original post there is no magic. No one has ever documented any supernatural occurances truthfully. The only testamony you can find is here say (not heresy) without any credible witnesses. There is a lot of wishful thinking as this kind of thing is , exciting. It breaks the boredom of life itself. As to the bible offering reliable testamony of such things the bible is not a textbook. It's only credible if you believe it, not because it has been shown to be error free. Some things in the bible are true and some things are not.

Well, that's a mighty BIG statement without citing a single proof.

Please, for the record, show us something from the Bible that, as you say "is not true", and, without personal bias, or opinion, based upon factual, credible evidence, direct us towards the truth you speak of. Also, please keep in mind, your evidence should not only support your claim that the segment of the Bible you speak of is false, it MUST also remain within the context of that particular section of the Bible (who wrote that section, who/why the section was written about/for, when it was written, proper attribution to the original language it was written in, and where it was written). Only after maintaining the context of the portion of the Bible you claim to be false and provide conclusive, empirical evidence against the context of that portion of the Bible will you have managed to prove it false. Until then, I am highly skeptical that you have the means by which to achieve this. Keep in mind, the Bible has been around in for a few thousand years and no one has produced such level of "proof" against the Holy scriptures. It's an arrogant thing to make such a claim without citing any form of legitimate evidence to the contrary.

Best of luck to you

No luck need thank you very much. Here goes:

2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death" 2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"

2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..." 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."

1 Kings 4:26 says "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots..." 2 Chronicles 9:25 says "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..."

2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem" Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"

1 Samuel 31:4-6 says "...Saul took a sword and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead and...died with him. So Saul died..." 2 Samuel 21:12 says "...the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa."

Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die [note: it doesn't say 'spiritual' death] Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..." Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"

James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."

Gen 6:20 says "Of fowls after their kind and of cattle [etc.]...two of every sort shall come unto thee..." Gen 7:2,3 says "Of every clean beast thou shall take to thee by sevens...Of fowls also of the air by sevens..."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."

Factual Errors

1 Kings 7:23 "He made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." Circumference = Pi() x Diameter, which means the line would have to have been over 31 cubits. In order for this to be rounding, it would have had to overstate the amount to ensure that the line did "compass it round about."

Lev 11:20-21: "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you." Fowl do not go upon all four.

Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..." Hare do not chew the cud.

Deut 14:7: " "...as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof." For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare don

Edited December 4, 2006 by Rebmilc