Guest Revolutionist777 Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 In a sermon delivered in 1989 at Times Square Church in New York City, Pastor Dave Wilkerson electrified his audience with the proclamation that America has passed the point of no return in its rebellion against God and has thus been destined by God for final judgment. He began the sermon with the following words: America is dying! The country's wound is incurable. It is now in the final throes of a terminal disease. The great empire is crumbling! The Message Summarized The crucial points make by Wilkerson in this historic prophetic declaration were as follows: 1. America is a sinful nation that is currently experiencing the judgment of God. 2. God has raised up many prophetic voices to call America to repentance and to warn that continued rebellion will lead to doom. 3. America has refused to listen to these prophets. Instead, the nation has stiffened in its rebellion against God. 4. The result is that America has passed the point of no return, the point of "dread release," when God delivers a nation from judgment to destruction. 5. And thus, the wrath of God is about to fall on this nation, most likely in the form of an economic collapse from which there will be no recovery. A Mocking Nation It is an ominous message of truth that Americans, even Christians, will rebel against. The Christian community will reject it because it has compromised its values with the world, it has wrapped itself in the flag of patriotism, and it has deceived itself with its pollyanna gospel of health, wealth and prosperity. When God sent prophets to Israel and Judah, calling them to repentance, the people mocked the prophets. "We are God's Chosen People," they reminded the prophets. "God will never allow our nation to be destroyed." (See Jeremiah 5:12-13 and Micah 3:11.) For the past thirty years God has been raising up prophetic voices in America voices like Dave Wilkerson calling this country to repentance. We have reacted in the same manner as the ancient Israelites. We have mocked the prophets by arrogantly reminding them that we are a "Christian nation." A Nation under Judgment But the truth is that we are anything but a Christian nation. Our behavior as a nation makes a mockery of Christianity. We lead the world in every abomination known to man - abortion, alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling, divorce, child abuse, violent crime, pornography, and yes, even child pornography. Worse yet, we export our violence and immorality to other countries through our sleazy movies and television programs. We have become the moral polluter of planet earth. And we are reaping what we have sown. The judgment of God is upon this nation. Read Deuteronomy 28:15-48. The curses of a nation under judgment are listed there. The passage reads like a detailed description of American society cities in chaos, youth in bondage, government in confusion, a foreign policy in retreat, rampant disease, epidemic divorce, agricultural calamity, and increasing foreign domination. A Nation in Rebellion Yet, despite these judgments, we have refused to repent. In fact, we have stiffened in our rebellion against God. In our schools we have abolished prayer, removed the Ten Commandments, and banned the distribution of Bibles. We have terrorized our teachers into believing they will lose their jobs if they mention God to their students. We have even mandated the teaching of atheistic evolution and have prohibited the truth of creationism. We are in the process of legalizing and even encouraging sodomy. We are handling out condoms and needles to our youth. We are going out of our way to protect every expression of profanity and obscenity. Our state governments are encouraging immorality by promoting gambling in every conceivable form. And our artists are wallowing in blasphemy, using every form of artistic expression to mock and ridicule God. America is thumbing its nose at God. The Supreme Court is in rebellion against God. Our Congress is hardened against God. Our Bureaucracy could care less about God. Our educational system has banned God. A Nation Facing Wrath The chilling thing about our behavior as a nation is that the Bible teaches that when a nation under judgment refuses to repent, it will ultimately reach a point where God will deliver it from judgment to wrath from discipline to doom. The Bible further teaches that when this terrible point of dread release is reached, the nation cannot be saved even by the prayer of the Righteous! Read Ezekiel 14:12-20. I call this the "Nahum Principle" because it is so clearly taught in the prophetic message that God gave to Nahum to deliver to Ninevah, the capitol of the Assyrian empire. Nahum pronounced that the nation's wounds had become "incurable" (Nahum 3:19). Jeremiah used this same terminology when he later pronounced God's doom upon Judah (Jeremiah 10:19 and 30:12). Nahum identifies the point of no return in chapter one, verse 11. He says it occurs when a nation's apathy toward God or rebellion against God is transformed into war with God. In other words, it is one thing for a nation to ignore God and another for it to rebel against God. These actions will provoke the judgment of God. But when a nation goes to war with God, that nation beckons the wrath of God and thus seals its doom. Has America reached that point? Dave Wilkerson, God's Jeremiah for our time, says we have. I think Wilkerson is right on target. How will God's wrath be manifested toward us? Initially, it is most likely to come in the form of an economic collapse from which there will be no hope of recovery. Ultimately, it is likely to be consummated in our destruction by nuclear weapons. As we face the consequences of our war against God, let those of us who are Christians do so with hope in our hearts, remembering the words of Nahum 1:7 "The Lord is good. He is a stronghold in the day of trouble. And He knows those who take refuge in Him. We as a Nation need to be seeking the AlmihgyGOD,on our knees in PRAYER asking for REPENTANCE for our SIN'S that we committ daily. As a nation that was founded on GOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartP Posted October 10, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 95 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/15/1962 Share Posted October 10, 2006 (edited) How will God's wrath be manifested toward us? Initially, it is most likely to come in the form of an economic collapse from which there will be no hope of recovery. Ultimately, it is likely to be consummated in our destruction by nuclear weapons. How does Wilkerson tie in this collapse/destruction with end times prophesy as per Revelations? Why can he not be more definite about the manifestation? The words used in the OP are "most likely" and "likely". Nahum and the others didn't weasel words they tended to be more specific. What kind of economic collapse has "no hope of recovery" Evidently worse than the Great Dpresssion of the 30's right? Obviously worse than 1930's Grmany when inflation was so bad folks carted currency around in wheelbarrows. So what's going to happen? The USA will be in economic stone-age for the rest of time? The USA was FOUNDED on principles of separtion of Church and State. It's not something that has recently happened or getting worse. ETA: The sermon was delivered in 1989. 17 years ago. Any chance of it ever coming about? Edited October 10, 2006 by StewartP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartP Posted October 10, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 95 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/15/1962 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Timeframe is irrelevant. In this case I don't agree. The warnings are of economic collapse and/or nuclear destruction. These scenarios only carry weight if the threat is imminent. The purpose of the prophesy is to get the nation to repent and return to God. threats of economic collapse in 10 generations time won't panic us as much as the thoughts of our children begging for bread on the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 10, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Well I don't disagree totally with Wilkerson's view of our countries problems. But scripturally what does it mean specifically to be a "nation" under judgment? I mean all people for all time are under judgment of sin there are NO worse judgment than that. Without Christ it matters not a whit what kind of a place a country or nation is as all individuals are equally condemned to hell without Christ, and all individuals are equally saved for eternity with a saving faith in Christ. God has sprinkled His elect among all of the nations, the vilest places and the most righteous places. Christ saves individuals not nations. Outside of Israel, I don't think individual nations matter very much in the grand scheme of things in the bible. In some ways it is so egocentric to think that we are so important either being a great Christian nation or being a horrible Sodom and Gomorrah. In the long run we are a relatively small young country with some very good things and some very bad things, which may not even be remembered. Read 2 Psalms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie d Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,081 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/08/1967 Share Posted October 11, 2006 (edited) whether or not anyone buys into the United States being a nation bound for harsh judgement the fact is that it IS... This country will be taken to such a ruined state, that our powerful mightiness will be left to a mere 3rd world status. We will be mocked by other nations and countries because our pride dictates that we will be made humble. Do NOT consider that we are going to get away with the abominations of this country with just a slap on the wrist by God. The pride of the nations WILL fall. We may not see it today, tomorrow or even a year from today. But each and every one of us can be guaranteed that the Lord WILL exact judgement on us as a nation and it WILL be painful. And there is nothing that we can do at this point to stop it from happening. Except make sure that our own personal lives are cleaned up and we are right with the Lord in every aspect of our lives. And then maybe, just maybe, he will spare us by either letting us die quickly or remove us from the clutches of it as he did with Lot and his daughters. We should not be foolish and ignore what is true. We are a terrible people and we live in a terrible evil place. Oh, yeah there are good things. But God judges the just and the unjust alike. As far as I can see the bad in this country far out weighs the good. Edited October 11, 2006 by jackie d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Why is everone harping on about the USofA all the time. America is no different from any other OECD nations. Sure it has a bigger poulation than most, but per capita, it is no worse than the rest of the world by biblical standards and I'm meaning so-called christian countries. And I'm not even american. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewA Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 82 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 469 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/21/1967 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Why is everone harping on about the USofA all the time. America is no different from any other OECD nations. Sure it has a bigger poulation than most, but per capita, it is no worse than the rest of the world by biblical standards and I'm meaning so-called christian countries. And I'm not even american. I often think the same. This is just right wing fire and brimstone preaching designed to create paranoia and frighten people into getting back to church. Another problem is there are plenty of people going around assuming that just about every prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled is going to involve USA when infact there is no evidence that it will, there is probably only one prophecy that could involve USA and that is Another point to take into account is people see America as a country that was founded by Christians and on Christian principles, now a part of the population has fallen into sin it is assumed God will look upon USA as another Sodom and Gomorrah . If you want to find a Christian country that has fallen from grace then UK beats USA for the title. We were a Christian country devoutly worshiping God long before the first European even set foot on continent of America, our country and government abandoned Christian principles and morals a very long long time ago and we cant really call ourselves a Christian country anymore. UK is in far worse state than the USA is, so if any country is going to be punished for falling from Gods grace then UK has to be one of first in line in front of USA. A good example of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartP Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 95 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/15/1962 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well I don't disagree totally with Wilkerson's view of our countries problems. Outside of Israel, I don't think individual nations matter very much in the grand scheme of things in the bible. In some ways it is so egocentric to think that we are so important either being a great Christian nation or being a horrible Sodom and Gomorrah. In the long run we are a relatively small young country with some very good things and some very bad things, which may not even be remembered. Read 2 Psalms. Absolutely. While biblical teachings apply on an individual level. And while any NT reference to "the church" and "the body of Christ" can be directly applied to the active congregation of current believers, to take OT (and (NT) prophesies concerning Tyre, Babylon, Nineveh etc and apply them specifically to the USA and/or American cities is egocentric. Would the people of Paris, Berlin or London have equal right to these prophesies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2006 Okay, I cant let this go by. This forum always raises my bloodpressure but here goes: First Who So Blind's comments demand an explanation: 1. The thought of children begging for bread on the streets panicks this generation? I don't think so. If it did, parents would stop taking out loans for multiplied hundreds of thousands of dollars, for "home improvement", vacation, indoor swimming pool, a third RV, etc, etc, and start saving for their children's college funds and inheritance. Where are children begging for bread in America??? Do you realize that the poor in this country live in homes and apartments? Have TV, clothes, appliances, clothing, etc.? Americans are the most generous citizens in the world. There is not a darn thing wrong with home improvements, vacations, pools or whatever. Did it ever occur to you that prosperity is a blessing from the Lord? Read your Bible. Or are you jealous of those who have because you do not? 2. This generation doesn't care one whit about its children. I find it ironic that the people who came out of the great depression often leave estates worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to their children. The children of those people are often penniless and squander their parents' estates in a matter of a few years, and leave nothing to their own children. That is the dumbest thing you have ever written. This nation does everything for its children--have you ever seen the multitude of laws passed protecting children? I would say we have gone too far in that direction; too much is done for "the children;" politicians love to rant and rave about doing it for "the children," so you are way off base there. There will always be irresponsible parents, like the ones described. Again, read your Bible. Was King David any better a parent than ones we have today? Not one bit; he was disaster as a father. The same goes for most of the patriarchs. Parenting has never been easy and a lot of people get it wrong who don't live in America. 3. I find it ironic that America is called a wealthy nation, and yet we have more debt than all other nations combined. So? Why bring that up? Much of our debt is in the form of government loans, ie., federal bonds and so on. Personal debt is a problem in America, but again, so what? Do you have a debt problem? I don't. Most people I know don't. Are you saying debt is a judgment from G-d or a person in debt is worthy to be judged by G-d? 4. How many times have I stood in line at a grocery store, and the parent one isle over has a case of beer, and the child has ONE soft drink or juice that the parent bought to shut them up for the next hour or so? How many times have I seen this, I cannot tell, hundreds in my lifetime. This, among other things that are plain to the untrained eye, leave this individual in shock that anyone would even think people on the whole in this country care about their children's future. Man, where do you shop?? You have seen this "hundreds of times" have you? I don't buy it for a second. Oh wait. You have a "trained eye!" You are trained to...what...see things and misinterpret them? Are you some kind of child-rearing expert? Are you following these people around all day? You know for sure they are bad parents, do you? You seem pretty good at judging people. Is this some special gift you have, in addition to that "trained eye" of yours? Perhaps you need to associate with a different kind of people--the kind that are saving and preparing for their child's future. There are millions of them out there. Do you have any idea how many billions (yes billions) of dollars are tied up in college savings plans in this country? Check it out. People like you make me sick. You have been blessed to live in a prosperous country, but instead of being thankful you complain. All you can see is the bad. You know what? There is bad everywhere if you look. Jesus told us the poor would always be with us. You are wanting the Millennial Kingdom so bad you fail to see the good all around you now. Your whole post sounds like ten pounds of sour grapes. I work with mentally delayed kids, mostly with Autism, and I can tell you all about parents who have sacrificed their careers, vacations, new cars and new clothes, promotions at work, etc., all for the sake of their children. I can tell you about fathers holding down 2 and 3 jobs to put their disabled kids in special schools. Why dont you get off your soap box and open your "trained eyes" to the good all around you. Maybe you won't be half so blind. Jackie wrote this: 1. whether or not anyone buys into the United States being a nation bound for harsh judgement the fact is that it IS... Chapter and verse. Don't give me another dream or vision, show me in the WORD. 2. This country will be taken to such a ruined state, that our powerful mightiness will be left to a mere 3rd world status. We will be mocked by other nations and countries because our pride dictates that we will be made humble. Chapter and verse. If you have such a hate on for MY country, why stay? I will gladly buy you a ticket to any nation of your choice that will take you. 3. Do NOT consider that we are going to get away with the abominations of this country with just a slap on the wrist by God. The pride of the nations WILL fall. We may not see it today, tomorrow or even a year from today. But each and every one of us can be guaranteed that the Lord WILL exact judgement on us as a nation and it WILL be painful. And there is nothing that we can do at this point to stop it from happening. Except make sure that our own personal lives are cleaned up and we are right with the Lord in every aspect of our lives. And then maybe, just maybe, he will spare us by either letting us die quickly or remove us from the clutches of it as he did with Lot and his daughters. What abominations in America are worse than the abominations of other nations? You misquote Scripture all the time. The "pride of nations" does not refer to America. You are so anxious for us to "clean up our lives" you play fast and lose with Scriptures. I genuinely believe you have a burden for believers, but sometimes you can be very critical and harsh. Critical and harsh and not gifts of the Spirit. You can't gin up emotions only; people need to have a change of heart, yes, even believers who aren't living as they should need a change of heart. You can yell and yell and throw your dreams at them and criticize them all day long, but it is the Word that convicts, causes repentance, and changes lives. You accuse the church of all manner of things that may or may not be true, but you (like your compatriot Why So blind) fail to see the good being accomplished by Bible-believing churches out there. Yes there is evil and wickeness out there. But there is also tremendous good that does not go unnoticed by the Lord. Will America fall? Of course it will. You don't need a dream or vision to know that. This whole world will be renewed by fire. There is nothing especially evil or wicked about America compared to other nations. 4. We should not be foolish and ignore what is true. We are a terrible people and we live in a terrible evil place. Oh, yeah there are good things. But God judges the just and the unjust alike. As far as I can see the bad in this country far out weighs the good. We are a terrible people??? America is a terrible place?? Jackie, words fail me. I was absolutely shaking when I read that. I can only assume you got emotional and didn't think. If you truly believe that, then why stay? I am completely honest when I say I will buy your plane ticket to the country of your choice. If you are that unhappy in America, if you truly believe it is that bad a place, why stay? But let me ask you this: do you own a home here? do you have A/C? Do you have a job here? Do you enjoy the creature comforts afforded you? Do you have a furnace in your house? Do you have a retirement plan? If so, then you can only be a hypocrit. I mean, really, why aren't you Amish or a Quaker? They are "in the world but not of it." I think they are wrong, but you can't call them hypocrits; they avoid the world; the "outsiders." I bet you don't. Do you drive a car? Do you have more than two or three pairs of shoes? How many purses would I find in your closet? Do you have a VISA card? How many? You see, before you shake a finger at the rest of us "terrible people," you had better make darn sure you are not one of us. It's pretty easy to be a pillow "prophet" from the comforts of your home, on your computer over the internet. You criticize and judge, all the while you indulge in the same lifestyle you abhor in others. My sincere apologies to the rest of you for wading through my rants above. But I have had it with the obvious anti American bias of some people here. It just sickens me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marnie Posted October 11, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 811 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 7,338 Content Per Day: 1.08 Reputation: 76 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/06/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well I don't disagree totally with Wilkerson's view of our countries problems. Outside of Israel, I don't think individual nations matter very much in the grand scheme of things in the bible. In some ways it is so egocentric to think that we are so important either being a great Christian nation or being a horrible Sodom and Gomorrah. In the long run we are a relatively small young country with some very good things and some very bad things, which may not even be remembered. Read 2 Psalms. Absolutely. While biblical teachings apply on an individual level. And while any NT reference to "the church" and "the body of Christ" can be directly applied to the active congregation of current believers, to take OT (and (NT) prophesies concerning Tyre, Babylon, Nineveh etc and apply them specifically to the USA and/or American cities is egocentric. Would the people of Paris, Berlin or London have equal right to these prophesies? Thank G-d. Somebody who knows what they are talking about. Just when I was about to abandon all hope.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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