Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

It doesn't come naturally? Then why is love your enemy such an ancient concept? If the guidance of the Holy Spirit is such a requirement, then how did these concepts occur before Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to humans?

Yes, it doesn't come naturally--that is why it is a command from Jesus Himself, the one with all authority---and it is a behaviour we can only do by the power of the Holy Spirit. Before the Holy Spirit came, we had the Son: same person! Those who heard the command from Jesus' own lips would certainly have been surprised by it, as it was not in the commandments given to Moses, but they would have been spurred on to obedience by the Son Himself! I know, I sure would have, if I was sitting at His feet and He told me that!

When are you going to answer the post that's presented without going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said?

I said that 'Love your enemy' is an ancient concept that pre-dates Christ. You, in your incredibly ignorant response, say that Jesus said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

How does that even begin to address my question? The concept PRE-DATES Christ's words. Might that not mean that "Love your enemy' might come naturally by observation?

k

Well, I could concede that the concept was there, because God wants us to do that, ultimately, but the command came from Jesus Christ. It was excluded from morality, as only loving those who loved you back was the norm. Jesus added to the commandments in order to enforce what God originally wanted, which Israel had watered down or misinterpreted over the centuries.

When Jesus made these now commands, people were flabbergasted...so it was unheard of, which is why I believe that it was a new concept with Jesus Christ.

PS: Why do you suggest that I go off on tangents? We can only do so much in here!

Because you don't address what is brought up. But you certainly did this time-

While other great minds were saying that love your enemy is a good idea, the Hebrews were killing theirs because God told them to. God did not love His enemies at the time. Not only the soldiers, but the women and children and the unborn.

Yet, in Asia, there were concepts that would have made Jesus proud. Of course, these were the very people that would contribute to the Hebrew's concepts of an even greater enemy in Lucifer- the Devil.

The God of the ancient Hebrews didn't seem to know about this evil person yet, and all of His killing was done against human enemies. Can anyone here explain that?

k

Your trying to mix two dispensations here. Without a clear understanding of the dispensations and why they exist, you cannot correlate or reconcile them, hence your lack of understanding. Floatingaxe is doing a good job of sketching them out, however. . .

Which two?

k

[Floatingaxe]

It doesn't come naturally? Then why is love your enemy such an ancient concept? If the guidance of the Holy Spirit is such a requirement, then how did these concepts occur before Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to humans?

Yes, it doesn't come naturally--that is why it is a command from Jesus Himself, the one with all authority---and it is a behaviour we can only do by the power of the Holy Spirit. Before the Holy Spirit came, we had the Son: same person! Those who heard the command from Jesus' own lips would certainly have been surprised by it, as it was not in the commandments given to Moses, but they would have been spurred on to obedience by the Son Himself! I know, I sure would have, if I was sitting at His feet and He told me that!

When are you going to answer the post that's presented without going off on a tangent that has nothing to do with what I said?

I said that 'Love your enemy' is an ancient concept that pre-dates Christ. You, in your incredibly ignorant response, say that Jesus said it, I believe it, and that settles it.

How does that even begin to address my question? The concept PRE-DATES Christ's words. Might that not mean that "Love your enemy' might come naturally by observation?

k

Well, I could concede that the concept was there, because God wants us to do that, ultimately, but the command came from Jesus Christ. It was excluded from morality, as only loving those who loved you back was the norm. Jesus added to the commandments in order to enforce what God originally wanted, which Israel had watered down or misinterpreted over the centuries.

When Jesus made these now commands, people were flabbergasted...so it was unheard of, which is why I believe that it was a new concept with Jesus Christ.

PS: Why do you suggest that I go off on tangents? We can only do so much in here!

Because you don't address what is brought up. But you certainly did this time-

While other great minds were saying that love your enemy is a good idea, the Hebrews were killing theirs because God told them to. God did not love His enemies at the time. Not only the soldiers, but the women and children and the unborn.

Yet, in Asia, there were concepts that would have made Jesus proud. Of course, these were the very people that would contribute to the Hebrew's concepts of an even greater enemy in Lucifer- the Devil.

The God of the ancient Hebrews didn't seem to know about this evil person yet, and all of His killing was done against human enemies. Can anyone here explain that?

k

You are wrong about the knowledge of Lucifer.

About God--He chose to work with His people, setting them apart to be called His own. He called them out from among the pagan people. They were pagan through and through, and God was NOT proud of them. They had nothing that God would be pleased with, which included some notion of loving their enemies---they wouldn't know how!

God hates sin, and that is your answer---He punished sin with wrath and precision. Nowadays, of course, he holds back His wrath because of Jesus, but He is still the same God of wrath and those who deny Him will suffer at His hand.

I agree with you about so much. The ancient Hebrews were indeed polytheists in Abraham's day.

What you have said makes sense.

Except for the fact that they knew about Lucifer. That's where we differ. But I'm glad that we can find common ground. I don't believe that the Christian God would hate me. I don't believe in Him, and that could cause a rift that is insurmountable, and I know that eternal hell is your version of my eventual future as a result, but I suppose I have problems believing in such an exclusive God. He created everyone, and only those of the western world seem to have the benefit of salvation in an easy package.

I don't want to be your enemy, nor do I want to be anyone's enemy, but if there is a God who created everyone, it seems to me that He wouldn't be so elusive as to have created evidence against what lots of Christians believe is all. It takes a lot of information to understand this evidence, but it is there. I can't help that.

But consider this- it is God's own choice whether or not to grant me sufficient faith to accept Him, or harden my heart against Him. I am open. If I'm doing it wrong, then people like you are the only ones that can tell me about it.

k

Well, bless your holey socks! There is hope for us yet!

[Floatingaxe]

Which two?

k

I have to pair this down so it's not so huge!!!

I'm not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination, but I will give it a shot. As an aside, the 'lack of understanding' comment was not meant as a dig, or insult in any way, shape or form.

You are trying to mix the Mosaic dispensation, from Moses to Christ with the age of grace dispensation, from Christ to present day. God dealt with/deals with people very differently during these different dispensations. The Israelites were/are His chosen people, i.e., they were the people by which He would teach the world about Himself. I know it sounds cruel, but He instructed Israel to destroy certain groups of people, to the last person, because they were morally corrupt, totally. God also knew that if these people were not eliminated, they would lead the Hebrews into idol worship and polytheism, which after failing to heed and carry out God's instructions, is exactly what happened. This lack of obedience lead to the Jews being lead into captivity and subjugated numerous times, each time they failed to totally obey God. Funny thing is, the Jews just would not assimilate and fade out of history, because they were stubborn, and it wasn't part of God's plan. With Christ's death and resurrection, the sin debt was paid, in full, and the group of people that would now fulfill God's plan to tell the world about Him, and salvation was the Gentiles, or any other race besides the Hebrews. God gives us chance, after chance after chance to turn to Him in repentance. But man is stubborn and keeps on wanting to think he has all the answers. If you take a look around at our world today, I think it is pretty clear that man obviously does not have the answer. I keep hearing people that say we can build a better world without religion or God, if we just try a little harder. Well, that sounds good, but obviously, if we could, we would have already done it.

I will leave you with this scripture, penned by the prophet Zechariah, in approx. 520 BCE. Ponder it and ask yourself if this was just a lucky guess, because it could be taken out of todays newspaper, yet it was written 2500 years ago:

Zechariah 12:2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

Just imagine what an awesome christian you would make, because it is so much harder to believe that God does not exist.

EXCELLENT!

[Guest]

Juggernaut, you are just plain goofy!

Your Heart knows nothing of Jesus.

Therefore, your Head has no clue of Christianity!

{atheists are atheists because the evidence is not there}

Why Our Heart Breaks!

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

(2 Corinthians 4:4 )

{You will also find that most atheists are far more learned in Christianity than most "born again" or Evangelicals.}

Jesus says....

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

(John 8:23-24 )

{It's a piece of cake. Who would deny that offer?}

Jesus says.....

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

(Matthew 16:24 )

It Is A Heart Matter!

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." (Luke 16:15 )

PS: "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

(Philippians 1:21 )

[jaisum]

"Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

You must not have ever talked to a Jew who believed in Jesus as Messiah then.

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that.

None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.

k

How do you know they hadnt??

How do I know? Well, because they hadn't, I guess. The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

You think that they believed in such things? Maybe I should ask you, then, how do you know they had?

k

The Book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. The first 2 chapters include consversations between God and satan. Satan means adversary (amongst other meanings). Whoever wrote Job was well aware of an adversary of God. The may not have 'classifeid' it as "the devil" but they were aware of a fallen angel who was opposed to God and mankind.

David was aware of Sheol.

The book of Jude in the NT records a consversation (well a dispute) between Archangel Micheal and Satan over the body of Moses. These passages in the book of Jude about this dispute are taken from The book of Enoch, which is not a canonical book of the Bible (though some scholars believe it should be) but has its roots and authorship deep into the early biblical times. Again, the Book of enoch records the adversary; the devil or satan.

Although the beliefs of the devil/sheol are not to prevelant in most of the OT writings, they certainly knew about Sheol, and satan. And these writings ie the book of Job, Enoch and the Psalms of David which mention Sheol a couple times, were well before the Babylonian period

Hope this helps

Jai Patel

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh

[Floatingaxe]

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Yeah, about that: Are you a prophet now?

If you see pronouncing someone as losing their faith as an insult, then you must think it is a bad thing.

Was is a good thing for you, then? Hmmmmmmmm?

[Guest yod]

Remember atheists aren't atheists to be spiteful , atheists are atheists because the evidence is not there.

Atheists are atheists because they don't want to be "shackled" by moral dilemnas

I thought we've gone over this before. You can't really accuse atheists of being immoral or not law abiding as the statistics show that atheists comprise less of the prison population as a percentage as compared to society and stay married longer than theists. (Check Gallup)

Now to answer your charge of not wanting to be shackled that is simply not the case. Christianity is the best game in town if it were true. Come on you tow the line for a short period here on earth and Kazam! you live forever with no worries. It's a piece of cake. Who would deny that offer? No, you will find that most atheists were once involved in religion and after trying to validate what was put to them found the evidence as not being supportable. You will also find that most atheists are far more learned in Christianity than most "born agains" or Evangelicals.

atheism is a convenient religion where you make all the rules and every person is a law unto themself.

I don't doubt that the average atheist has greater knowledge of the history of various religions since atheism is more of an intellectual pursuit than spiritual.

But I'm curious about what you have tried to validate and found unsupportable?

.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Atheism is not a religion.

re

[Floatingaxe]

Is it not enough to say that what one would not want done to himself, he should not do to other people?

Odd how this is a scripturally based concept! Right from the mouth of the Son of God, even!

Luke 6:31

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

But if you're telling me that all of humanity, including someone who lives their whole life trying to take care of and help other people, is evil, I think you need to open your eyes and take a look at the beauty of the human race.

Isaiah 64:6

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

There is no hope apart from Christ.