Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

Your right it's not up to me, that right is reserved for God!

As I put in my post!

I apologise if I offended you or any other atheist but

I won't apologise for my opinions you may agree or

disagree that is your right!

God Bless!

Your opinion is based on an absolute void of experience. You haven't been an atheist as far as I know, and if you ever were, then I can't imagine what your atheism was based on, except perhaps a hatred of God, which would indicate that you weren't really an atheist to begin with.

You are not willing to apologize for saying that atheists want to take people with them to hell, which suggests that atheists are hateful and willfully antagonistic towards other people for no reason that makes any sense at all. Fine. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as your suggesting that atheists even conceive of the concept of hell. In all the world's religions, only a very few believe in that concept. That being said, how can you even marginally entertain the idea that an atheist would do so?

I know it is hard for a believer to relate to a universe that doesn't include a God (believe me, I know the difference, and it is profound!).

But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview, then they will never be able to even engage non-believers in conversation, because Jesus was absolutely correct in His treatment of people. That's right, an atheist agrees with Jesus' treatment of non-believers, and if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians.

But that's not what we get. All we get is a very human aggressiveness and assertion according to human emotion and interpretation that we are outsiders.

Especially in America, there is a most pointed paranoia that if people don't agree immediately just because of an argument or two, then those people are evil and destined for hell. Paranoia? Why?

Love your enemy can't be done in light of this paranoia. Christians can't have non-Christians posting on the boards at large, or someone might turn away. Can you imagine any other site deciding that if someone doesn't subscribe to the dogma of that board, then they can't post on all the available boards?

A board about planting trees could, once determining that someone doesn't agree with the shaking off of the original dirt from the roots before planting, could make that poster only post on a few boards because they don't want those evil ideas to permeate the population.

Did Jesus go to Zacheus's house or didn't He? Wasn't that seen by the population as being "not done"? Did He care what the people thought? Was He inclusive? or exclusive?

Well, this site is exclusive. That tells me that Christianity is either paranoid about what it may hear, and therefore paranoid about its position, and unfaithful in its faith in God's ability to love and keep who is His, or has lost the good sensibilities that Jesus originally taught.

Love conquers all. I'm thinking that it isn't the fear of what atheists might say that makes this board exclusive, but what Christians might say because they don't seem to understand the purpose of Christianity. Good idea.

True Christians are few and far between. I was one, but have recently seen that there is no God, but in the meantime, I can't believe what I'm seeing from supposed Christians with regard to Jesus' truth.

Your message must, at the very least, transcend human intellect in favor of love. If it doesn't, you might as well be Sadducees.

k

I think you meant Pharisees....Saducees simply failed to believe in the ressurrection.

I was referring to the historical makeup of the Saudecees and the Pharisees. The Pharisees were not friends of Rome like the Saudecees. The Pharisees were the party of the people and would have taken a "wait and see" attitude in the case of Jesus and wouldn't have seen Him as an enemy. The Saducees were placed in power by Rome and would have had problems with a possible messianic candidate because that would have meant their downfall as the power in charge. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that the Pharisees would have treated Jesus as they were depicted to have in the Gospels. Fortunately, the Gospels were written way after the fact, after Rome had destroyed the Temple at Jerusalem, so it makes sense that the Pharisees were depicted as the bad guys. But it would take an incredible imagination indeed to believe that the Pharisees would have treated Jesus as the Gospels say they did.

You harbour bitterness Khalou, and it is no surprise that you feel the way you do..Theres just one problem though with all of your thoughts and comments...

Gods forgiveness through Christ was never about US ever being able to measure up..Gods forgiveness through Christ was NEVER about being Worthy to receive it...Gods Forgiveness through Christ has only ever been a measure of how Worthy Christ is....The gospel of Christ has always been about how forgiving GOD is, not how worthy we are to RECEIVE his Forgiveness...

I harbor no ill will towards you, but, are you kidding? I suppose you didn't know that I was a Christian for over forty years.

The bitterness and unforgiveness YOU are holding onto will only ever burden YOU Khalou....Unforgiveness only ever hurts the person who holds ONTO it...That is why forgiveness is so key in the message of the gospel....That is why the gospel is a message of Reconciliation....Reconciliation between God and his Redeemed. "Forgive us OUR sins as we forgive those who have sinned AGAINST us..." "For if you cannot forgive a man of HIS sins, then your heavenly father cannot forgive YOU of YOURS.."

There are those who are bound by the curse of sin Khalou, and there are those who are bound by unforgiveness having been sinned AGAINST.

You seem to have had a bitter experience as a "believer of some sort", but you have only demonstrated by these words that YOU yourself are also a reflection of the very things you have criticized.....

Yes Jesus spent time with and dined with sinners...Of course he did...He came to his OWN people...They KNEW they were sinners....Jesus didnt have to lay it on the table what sin WAS...HE didnt have to teach them the laws..They were already well versed in the Laws...He simply told them to "Go and sin no more, lest something worse befalls you." He didnt come to teach them what sin WAS...He came to call them to REPENTANCE...."Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."

He came to reveal himself as the one prophesied...He didnt need to announce anything to DO with the Messiah because THEY by their actions revealed this themselves......You can use Jesus as your defense for judgement and justification for your own attitude as much as you like Khalou...Truth is, he came to his own...He was not telling UNbelievers not to judge one another....He was telling BELIEVERS and DISCIPLES....For Judgement begins with the Family of God.

So you see, in your own attitude towards believers you are doing what is right, but you are not doing it in a right way..You are not teaching, you are criticizing..

This my friend paints YOU in the same picture as you are painting OTHERS....

Spare a thought for Paul. HE had the mission of revealing sin to people who didnt believe they were sinners...He had the mission also of keeping the churches united in Christ.....His revelation on the road to Damascus was Huge....So too because of that revelation was what would be expected of him...

"To him whom much is revealed, much is expected."

Faith is a gift given by God......If it is given by God, then the only one who can take it away IS God....If you claim as you do to have once been A Christian, then I must ask what happened to that gift..? Did God take it away from you....??? If he didnt, then what or who was sustaining your relationship with God in the first place....?

This gift of faith which I have is not my own Khalou...It is the gift from God. It is HIS..IT belongs to HIM, but he has given it to ME..HE sustains ME...It is through my walk with the Holy Spirit of God IN ME, that I am able to gain understanding and knowledge of God in an UNcorrupted Truth. You need to understand that there are times when it is a better witness NOT to be somewhere, than it is to BE there...

Please dont ever forget this one thing..Though Jesus died for ALL men.......He came to his OWN...Israel. He in THAT sense is VERY EXCLUSIVE....Please think about these things..

Paul is a preacher and expounder of the gospel to the GENTILES.......Paul is the messenger and apostle appointed by God to preach the good news to the Gentiles...Paul taught and demonstrated through the power of the Holy Spirit, the OUTworkings of the Teachings of Christ as given to him through REVELATION.

(Galatians 1:11,12)

This Board, for the sake of ALL who venture through here is categorized to deal with different groups of people seeking encouragement, Truth and often even correction, teaching and discipline...It caters to those interested in Apologetics, Hermeneutics, Prayer, Encouragement etc etc....There are places where people can go to get away from the argument and debate and there are places FOR argument and debate..These are clearly and concisely mapped out in a rather impressive WebSite.....There are also RULES and requests that need to be adhered to...This board is NOT exclusive as clearly we can see that one slight look to the left of the screen will site YOU as an UNbeleiver...Yet YOU are in here TOO.....

Do not denegrate others in your quest to justify yourself Khalou...You simply become a reflection of the very things profess to stand AGAINST.....

Regards,

Ben.

I am grateful that you have shared this with me. I will read it, and re-read it just to make sure I understand what you have said. Thank you.

But my atheism isn't based on what you might think it is.

k

[khalou]

Khalou,

Being a "good person" in the sight of God, is about a whole lot more than "NOT" being BAD....

How many of these "good" people you speak of are sharing the gospel of Christ with anyone....???

You can feed a hungry mouth and clothe a naked body and even provide shelter for those who have NONE....But what have you REALLY given them if in all of this, you have not given them the "True Bread from heaven." Who when you eat of it shall never hunger again, or the true Living Water, of which when you drink of it, you shall never thirst again. What have you done towards a persons Spiritual well being when all you have done is fed an empty physical stomach...?

They need BOTH....Anything LESS than the gospel is signing their eventual death warrant yourself.

If it was about who gives the most to charities, then Opera would probably be right up there, and in great favour with God..If it was about who is seen in the eyes of the world as being the most righteous then you would probably have a pretty big debate to sort that one out...

The point is that without the gospel of Christ who holds the words of eternal life...all you have really offered a person is a few extra years, whilst leaving their eternity UNDONE.

The greatest distraction to a mans salvation is his belief in himSELF and his OWN goodness. A man will believe ANYTHING so long as it doesnt call him an unsaved and condemned sinner. A man is too busy marching along encompassed in his own "goodness" to see that he is living his life in the SELF belief that he is too "Good" to be damned.

"Unless a man Repents, he shall perish." These are words often NOT quoted by those who like to quote Jesus....

"Unless a man is born again, he shall not see the kingdom of God."

Words of Truth than no opinion from the past, present or future can ever hope to alter. Opinion is LESS than Truth. That is what MAKES it opinion in the first place and NOT Truth. Let me leave you with two startling revelations about the person of JESUS...

1. Never ONCE did Jesus state an OPINION....He spoke always "I tell you the TRUTH"

2. Jesus never ONCE apologised for a single word he spoke. Because it WAS Truth.

Best you listen to what he has to say. And by listening I am talking about hearing with a RIGHT attitude....Not just listening.

Something to ponder.

Regards,

Ben.

I appreciate that and all, but after over forty years of being a Christain, it is pretty basic. Thank you for confirming my opinion of what Christianity truely is, but I didn't really have any doubt to begin with.

k

[Guest]

Dear Khalou

{PLEASE! At least admit that Christians are just as likely to pick and choose what's okay and what's not according to their own opinion as atheists.}

You are so right Khalou and it is too sad!

Christians are at different levels of growth and they are as prone to sin as any other human.

We Christians, however, have a new life inside of us, a spirit, and God's Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit and we are chastised and we repent from our judgmental ways.

Remember, not all who call themselves Christian are Christian!

And, some Christians will walk in spiritual pride (a terrible, terrible sin I've committed from time to time) until God has mercy on their souls and their spirits and convicts them and draws them away from this sin and back into His Loving Will.

The only thing we Christians should know about our unsaved neighbor is.....

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2 )

Any sin is against God and earns the death penalty.

Even "A Proud Look" is an abomination to God!

[16] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

[17] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

[18] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

[19] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

(Proverbs 6:16-19 )

Khalou as you can clearly see from this short list all of us have sinned.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23 )

You and I have only one way we can be cleaned of our sin and dwell in the Arms of our loving God.

"we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

(1 John 1:10 )

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23 )

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 )

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21 )

We each must plead The Blood that was shed at Calvary.....

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10 )

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 )

Repent means to turn away from our sinful self.

Repent means to turn to our only hope, Jesus.

Repent means to surrender all our efforts at self righteousness and to turn to and cling to Jesus!

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" (Acts 3:19 )

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Corinthians 7:10 )

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9 )

And then, "Happy Birthday Brother Khalou"

And then the real combat begins but you'll never be alone again.

"As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." (Psalm 103:12 )

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Ephesians 3:17 )

[khalou]

Wow.

Didn't understand any of that, but thanks for responding.

k

[Guest]

Dear Khalou

{Speaking as a person that doesn't do eternal pain well, I would appreciate any help in believing in your God. Since you hold this opinion, I'm sure you can do that.}

Amen! Neither do I :-)

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13 )

Dear Khalou

Believe it or not but salvation is All of God's Work.

All you need to do is turn on your heart lamp and signal S.O.S to Jesus,

Cry out to Jesus

Whisper out to Jesus

He will hear your heart cry!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 )

I cry out to Jesus for His Mercy and His Grace upon you!

[LightofJesus]

khalou,

I have to say this but I read in between lines I guess or else something else is going on here. You do have a very unique relationship going on I believe. As I prayed for you I really believe the Lord is still using you cause I sence the love of our Father still coming through. I know some people here are going to think I have flipped but I do not count myself religous at all. In fact when people introduce me to someone at times say that I am religous and I am not I am a believer of Jesus Christ. I know what He has done in my life and I know without a doubt there is more! But the biggest thing He has done is carried me through my grief when my husband died, of 23 years. He is faithful and true. I know you know this and I do not know why you are so determined to try and deny Him but like I keep saying I'm still standing for you in Jesus' name! Oh by the way I'm from southern Calif. born and raised! Where in Calif. are you if it is alright to ask?

Catch ya later got to get ready for work!

I call people like you "Jesusists". (not Jesuits )

I know that you hold nothing in your heart but love for me because the message of Jesus in plain in your writing.

You are the type of person that I might meet in life and wonder what makes you so special. Your fruits are your testimony, and more likely to break the heart of an atheist than trying to fight them into submission through earthly wisdom.

Here's what just popped into my mind-

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

You have shown these words in action.

k

k

You have touched my heart once again and I know that I know in my heart I have touched yours. I was praying again on your behalf and I sence from our Lord that you still are written in the palm of His hand He will never leave you my brother nor will I!

Oh by the way you did not answer one question, where are you located in Calif.? I lived in Anaheim area, but born in San Gabrial, gee I think I spelled that wrong.

Well once again I have to get ready for work I will continue to pray! Thank you so much for the scripture it has filled my heart with joy

[jaisum]

"Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

You must not have ever talked to a Jew who believed in Jesus as Messiah then.

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that.

None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.

k

How do you know they hadnt??

How do I know? Well, because they hadn't, I guess. The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

You think that they believed in such things? Maybe I should ask you, then, how do you know they had?

k

The Book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. The first 2 chapters include conversations between God and satan. Satan means adversary (amongst other meanings). Whoever wrote Job was well aware of an adversary of God. The may not have 'classifeid' it as "the devil" but they were aware of a fallen angel who was opposed to God and mankind.

David was aware of Sheol.

The book of Jude in the NT records a consversation (well a dispute) between Archangel Micheal and Satan over the body of Moses. These passages in the book of Jude about this dispute are taken from The book of Enoch, which is not a canonical book of the Bible (though some scholars believe it should be) but has its roots and authorship deep into the early biblical times. Again, the Book of enoch records the adversary; the devil or satan.

Although the beliefs of the devil/sheol are not to prevelant in most of the OT writings, they certainly knew about Sheol, and satan. And these writings ie the book of Job, Enoch and the Psalms of David which mention Sheol a couple times, were well before the Babylonian period

Hope this helps

Jai Patel

The ancient Hebrews never believe what you're telling me. You don't get to change that just because you want to, you know. I have had many meaningful conversations with Christians who are well educated in history that assure me that God didn't reveal the nature of Satan to the Hebrews of the time. If you are a historian of any sort, you need to publish a paper, because you would be accepted as a trailblazer among them.

Did you miss my post about these things?

Satan in Job was an emissary of the God of Abraham who brought both good and evil. Nothing happened to a man except by the will of God. This Satan was a member of God's court and was loyal to God. David held that census because of Satan in one version in the Bible, and because of God Himself in an earlier version. Those ancient Hebrews believed that no supernatural entity was capable of disobeying God. God is all powerful according to them.

You need to read more.

k

Hello K

Thank you for your reply

As far as i read in the Bible, particularly the book of Job, there was a specific day when the sons of God (meaning the fallen angels) had to present themselves infornt of the LORD, and even God asked Satan "where have you come form?" (Job 1.6-7). I dont see anywhere that this indicates satan was a member of Gods court. In fact he was summoned to Gods court and told to give a report about his activites. Nowhere is satan a loyal member of GodsCourt/Heaven since Genesis 3.14 when the serpent {satan} is cursed by God to crawl on its belly feeding off the dust of the earth (a reference to create disharmony between God and man). So our sources from the Bible clearly show satan is not an active member of Gods Court.

As i read thourgh the Bible, although the direct nature of satan isnt revealed completely until Jesus arrives, you can clearly see satans 'handiwork' lurking in the background: E.g tempting Adam & Eve to sin, God brings the promise of the Messiah (Gen 3.15). satan doesnt know the Messiah will be from a Jewish background, only that He will be born form mankind, so satan proceeds to contaminate the human-race with the 'sons-of-God' or Nephilim {race of unknown origin) during Gen 6. GOd destroys all the human race, save Noah and family, for its violence and contamination (of the human race and genepool) because of inter-breeding with this Nephilim race.... LATER: Next God reveals the Messianic line through Abraham, so satan creates disharmony with the birth of Ishmael. Yet God allows the birth of Isaac to carry on the Messianic line. Then we can go through the birth of Moses: satan through Egypt's Pharoah gives orders for all male Israelites babies to be killed, yet Moses is saved as a baby. Moses gives the Law which is eventually to be fullfilled perfectly through the Messiah, and Moses predicts the coming of Jesus (Duet 18.15-18) This is the first idea to the Hebrews that God will give them someone better than Moses, a 'super' Prophet in the later times. Thus after the Judges and the battles and satans attempts to 'disqualify' the Messianic line through the Israelites behaviour (chasing after idols and pagan religions that involved human sacrifice, sexual rituals, etc) God allows Kings to Rule over Israel, and Judah. If you read through Chronicles and Kings, Apart from King David- who was still carrying the Messianic Line- and a few others, many kings went against Gods Will. THis is also satan working behind the scenes to stop the Messiah being born? Certain kings were killed and even cursed that were involved in the Messianic line and this does all boil down to satan working behind the scenes to stop the Messiah from being born... yet God always provided an 'escape' from a certain king or person from the Messianic Line.... Can you see the pattern devoping? God states the Messiah will be born from Mankind, then from Abrahams descent, then from a specific tribe (Judah) then from a specific line of Kings (King David, etc.. Each time God reveals more specifics about where the Messiah will come from, satan narrows down his attacks onto those specifics... yet God is always infront and there is alwasy someone from the Messianic Line who 'got away' in order that this line will be protected. And indeed it was all the way to Mary and Joseph. So as you can see, although satans nature wasnt revealed more throroughly until the N.T, his plans and his evil intents to go against Gods will have always been the same from the beginning. (So how is satan being loyal to God in light of this?)

Im sure you have had many meaningful and intellectual conversations with Christians. Yet i do not know they background of these Christians. Atheists are more likely to speak to liberal Christians as they are more inclined to agree with Atheists on issues such as scholarship, denial of authorship of certain books, etc. So if you could be so kind to point out sources i will take up your offer " to read more"

God Bless

Jai

[Floatingaxe]

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

But if you're telling me that all of humanity, including someone who lives their whole life trying to take care of and help other people, is evil, I think you need to open your eyes and take a look at the beauty of the human race.

Ever tell a lie? Ever steal something? Ever look at a woman or someone of the same sex with lust in your eye? Ever covet your neighbors wife or possibly his posessions?

Where's your mind go when it's got a minute AAA?

The beauty of the human race in is the fact that we are Created in Gods Image with the full potential to be children of the most High God by Grace and Faith. Otherwise you amount to about 37 cents worth of laboratory chemicals. No Weight and certainly no Glory.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

QUOTE(Matthitjah @ Oct 14 2006, 07:31 AM)

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

QUOTE

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh 8:7

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Who is Jesus Christ to you Khalou?

Peace,

Dave

Great question.

First and foremost, Jesus was a person I wish more Christians would listen to. The farther from Jesus Christians get, the more willing they seem to be to cast stones.

So Jesus is a Good person? What if He were a liar?

You haven't really answered the question.

Is He merely a Good Teacher or is He God?

Or is He the greatest liar and charlatan known to mankind?

Can He Truly be both?

Peace,

Dave