Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Ovedya]

on the other hand, I believe, that if a person whos heart is with God sins in the spur of the moment, without really thinking about it, then they would probably be forgiven even if they died before they asked forgiveness, since God knows their heart and they aren't intentionally premeditating their sin.

I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it....like I said, God judges our hearts, and it's not for us to say that Joe Blow is saved or not. The wise man will be prepared by true conversion, and the foolish man presumes on his salvation.

"I believe"...."probably be forgiven"...."I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it."

For someone who is so absolutely sure that a believer can lose their salvation for "intentional premeditated sin", you sure don't seem very concrete with regards to "unintentional sin."

Yet the Bible makes no distinction between the two.

It has been repeated in this thread that, "neither idolators, drunkards, liars........will inherit the kingdom of the heavens." Yet there has not once been the proper distinction made that "those who practice such things" do so with intent and malice. No true believer "practices sin."

You had better be absolutely sure that you know the difference, and don't make assumptions about what you think God might do with your unrepentant "unintentional" sin.

[EricH]

Repentance is a very important ingredient to receiving forgivenss.

Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

See where it says, "If he repent. forgive him". I receive forgiveness when I repent and as forgivenss for the sins that I committ. If I die in my sins I have no room for repentance nor confession to recieve forgiveness.

This is not the best example to use as the passage is not describing the mechanism by which God forgives. Rather it is describing the way we should deal with a person who has sinned against us. The text does not say, "If he repents, God will forgive him". "It says, If he repents, you forgive him". Bad example

[TomPJr]

on the other hand, I believe, that if a person whos heart is with God sins in the spur of the moment, without really thinking about it, then they would probably be forgiven even if they died before they asked forgiveness, since God knows their heart and they aren't intentionally premeditating their sin.

I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it....like I said, God judges our hearts, and it's not for us to say that Joe Blow is saved or not. The wise man will be prepared by true conversion, and the foolish man presumes on his salvation.

"I believe"...."probably be forgiven"...."I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it."

For someone who is so absolutely sure that a believer can lose their salvation for "intentional premeditated sin", you sure don't seem very concrete with regards to "unintentional sin."

Yet the Bible makes no distinction between the two.

It has been repeated in this thread that, "neither idolators, drunkards, liars........will inherit the kingdom of the heavens." Yet there has not once been the proper distinction made that "those who practice such things" do so with intent and malice. No true believer "practices sin."

You had better be absolutely sure that you know the difference, and don't make assumptions about what you think God might do with your unrepentant "unintentional" sin.

That is why it is so omportant to repent and live according to Gods will, obedient to his word and to his laws. Obey his commands out of love, respect, and fear, and cultivate those thing within your heart so you will naturally want to keeps his laws and hate breaking them. If you do that then you are secure. If not then you got something to work on.

If you are totally converted then there is nothing to worry about, but it will be easy for someone who is young in faith to fall away or get comfortable in their sins and continue in them, not willing to repent, because they are convinced that they are already saved and they can't lose it. Can't you see why that is such a dangerous teaching? They hold so tightly to their warm and fuzzy security blanket that someone like you gave them and start compramizing their faith because, "hey god forgives and I'm already eternally secure". They will never be truly converted, because they think they already are.

God bless

Tom

[Ovedya]

on the other hand, I believe, that if a person whos heart is with God sins in the spur of the moment, without really thinking about it, then they would probably be forgiven even if they died before they asked forgiveness, since God knows their heart and they aren't intentionally premeditating their sin.

I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it....like I said, God judges our hearts, and it's not for us to say that Joe Blow is saved or not. The wise man will be prepared by true conversion, and the foolish man presumes on his salvation.

"I believe"...."probably be forgiven"...."I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it."

For someone who is so absolutely sure that a believer can lose their salvation for "intentional premeditated sin", you sure don't seem very concrete with regards to "unintentional sin."

Yet the Bible makes no distinction between the two.

It has been repeated in this thread that, "neither idolators, drunkards, liars........will inherit the kingdom of the heavens." Yet there has not once been the proper distinction made that "those who practice such things" do so with intent and malice. No true believer "practices sin."

You had better be absolutely sure that you know the difference, and don't make assumptions about what you think God might do with your unrepentant "unintentional" sin.

That is why it is so omportant to repent and live according to Gods will, obedient to his word and to his laws. Obey his commands out of love, respect, and fear, and cultivate those thing within your heart so you will naturally want to keeps his laws and hate breaking them. If you do that then you are secure. If not then you got something to work on.

If you are totally converted then there is nothing to worry about, but it will be easy for someone who is young in faith to fall away or get comfortable in their sins and continue in them, not willing to repent, because they are convinced that they are already saved and they can't lose it. Can't you see why that is such a dangerous teaching? They hold so tightly to their warm and fuzzy security blanket that someone like you gave them and start compramizing their faith because, "hey god forgives and I'm already eternally secure". They will never be truly converted, because they think they already are.

God bless

Tom

"Someone like you...compromising their faith."

Boy you're not insulting me much there, are you. You're only saying that I have the potential for compromising someone's faith and sending them to hell.

The works which you do out fear will not secure your position in the heavenlies. It will only keep you in bondage to the law. the same is true for every believers who serves God out of fear of eternal damnation. It's bondage to the law, pure and simple.

I'm taking another vacation from this thread...

[Ovedya]

The only sin that is not forgiven is the one you don't ask forgiveness for and repent of.

Then in terms of what you believe concerning salvation, you had better hope beyond all hope that you don't have a single sin unrepented of when your time is up on this earth.

Imagine....A Christian going to hell because of a single loose word said half a second before a bus runs him over.

That's precisely why OSNAS doesn't work!

On the other hand, to commit adultery, rob a bank, kill someone is another story. Those sins are not automatically under the blood.

Then the blood of Christ falls short and by youre statement you make God a liar.

Grace to you.

Again...vacation time.

[spiritman]

More references for you all:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%23%2C%3FG%5C%0A

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/chafer/chaassur.html

http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/45-40.htm

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t006.html

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1989ii/Malan.html

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1990ii/Calvin.html

Of course nobody ever wants to take the time to actually read references like these. It may just turn their self-conceived notions and ingrained doctrinal precepts on their respective ears!

Ovedya,

I followed some of you're links, and I couldn't get the first one to load. Anyway here is what it boils down to, you have some scriptures backing up O.S.A.S. But I can post at least half a dozen scriptures to the contrary. For example the next link talks about if you believe in Christ you will be saved, true enough; but that also means that a Christian can lose their salvation if they discontinue to believe, true enough. All these scriptures O.S.A.S and not once saved always saved need to be put together in a way to where they both fit together in harmony. The only way to do that is to come to the conclusion, that a saved person can lose their salvation if they sin, however, if they repent, the Lord forgives and they are back in again. P.S I will not spend any time posting any of the scriptures I was refering to because CardCaptor, and Vicki, and some others did such a fine job on putting it together that there is not a whole lot I could add.

As far as a Christian really not being saved if he/she sins, I don't swollow that for a moment. There are scriptures to back up the fact that true Christians did fall away, and repent, and come back.

Peace and Love

Spiritman

Hold on a sec what if a christian dies during a sin and doesnt repent. What if Im christian and saved and then I go out with friends and drink way too much and end up driving crashing the car and dying. You're saying because of that one sin I wasnt able to repent for then I'm then condemned to hell for eternity. Not one thing about that situation would be just. Also, when Jesus died that was for all of our sins(past, present, and future) so whats the reason for repenting? Dont get me wrong. I do it but its more something that God wants us to do. We do it because its a healthy thing to do. To confess your sins to God. So, let me know what you think. Your brother in Christ, matthew

First of all, why would you be out drinking and driving? If you are a Christian, you should know better. We are clearly warned in scripture that no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of heaven, and you are speaking of a person who rebells against that warning, and not only gets drunk, but risks the lives of many innocent people by driving drunk. Many of those people on the highways you are putting at risk were not saved, and by your act, could enter into eternity lost. I don't agree with you that your loss of salvation in such an instance wouldn't be just.

I also dissagree with you that Jesus sacrifice on the cross automatically covers all your sins (past, present and future). That is a falicy promoted by the OSAS crowd. All of your past sins are indeed under the blood, as are your present and future sins that you did unknowingly or without intent, but all present and future sins that are wilful are not covered. Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin WILFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, THERE REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS." There is a difference in having an evil thought come to your mind, or doing something wrong you didn't intend to, and committing a wilful act of rebellion against God.

I'm not sure who asked this question but I'll respond to it.

quote: Hold on a sec what if a christian dies during a sin and doesnt repent. What if Im christian and saved and then I go out with friends and drink way too much and end up driving crashing the car and dying. You're saying because of that one sin I wasnt able to repent for then I'm then condemned to hell for eternity. Not one thing about that situation would be just. Also, when Jesus died that was for all of our sins(past, present, and future) so whats the reason for repenting? Dont get me wrong. I do it but its more something that God wants us to do. We do it because its a healthy thing to do. To confess your sins to God. So, let me know what you think. Your brother in Christ, matthew

Spiritman responds : If you truely fear God, and love Him, you shouldn't be out drinking and acting like sinners anyway. But I will say this out of all fairness, God is mercyful, and He that began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. I did the same thing when I first came to Christ, but the Lord in His mercy, that by the way I or anyone else don't deserves; brought me back unto Himself. I could have easy met the fate that you are talking about above. If this is what you are doing, Don't, play with your salvation it isn't worth it. here are some scriptures to help with this question:

Ezek 3:18-21 (NLT)

18 If I warn the wicked, saying,

[Openly Curious]

It has been repeated in this thread that, "neither idolators, drunkards, liars........will inherit the kingdom of the heavens." Yet there has not once been the proper distinction made that "those who practice such things" do so with intent and malice. No true believer "practices sin."

Hello ovedya,

The scripture above has in it's entirety been repeated in this thread as I have read it myself many times over and it is a scripture that is mentioned several times in the new testament and cannot be dismissed. One does not have to be full of intent or malice to do these types of sins that are mentioned within the said verse. Sometimes all it takes is being full of pride and not taking heed to yourself and then you fall. The cares of this life can lead one astray from God's care and one can go astray and mammon can become their God thus back into idlolatry. As the word says that the cares of this life choke the word of God within our hearts. One can be going through difficulties and turn to alchol for a solution to their problems or relief of stress and become a drunkard all the time as a result. One can become a liar for so many different reasons such as out of fear of what may happen to them if they tell the truth. All of these things mentioned along with the others can happen to believers all without intent and malice in their hearts toward God. For we are in the flesh and our flesh has times of weaknesses and temptations and trials that are all designed by Satan to lead us astray into these weaknesses of the flesh so that we will not walk in the Spirit.

There are wilful premeditated sins one can do as well even being a Christian for example the bible tells us not to let the sun go down on our wrath. This is talking about anger inside of us as we should settle things before we go to bed or else they will be there when you wake up first thing in the morning after you have stewed about them all night long perhaps thinking how you are going to get your revenge back on the person you had a falling out with. And if you don't settle it and let that anger go the next day you might do something out of spite you may regret and therefore sin in your anger as a result. This would be a example and a distinction done with intent and malice. As malice is also a sin and work of the old nature of the first Adam but if one would have obeyed the counsel of the Lord they would then have borne the peaceable fruits of righteousness and yielded themselves to the Spirit of God and had peace, temperance, love, joy all the fruits of the Spirit instead.

You said, "No true believer practices sin." No true believer is immune from the old nature of the first Adam as we still live in the flesh that wants and likes the pleasures of sin. No sincere follower of God wants to practice sin but true believers do have those times of testing from Satan in order to destroy their faith as he tries to lead them astray and a believer should not think so highly of themselves that they cannot be touched again with the ill's of sin through the temptations and trials Satan brings into their lives. For some slip and sin simple by not being on guard and having the armor of God on. Others get hardened by sin and do not seperate themselves unto God which is their reasonable service. Others sin out of malice of heart. There are so many things that can lead one to go astray and break their fellowship with the Lord. I would say that no true believer should desire to live a lifestyle of sin after they have been made a partaker of the divine nature of God the second Adam being Christ. For that is the test of their righteousness within to repent when they mess up and sin and not hide it from God as they need to come to God in their troubles and repent of the wrong they have done telling it to God until he removes it from them as He is faithful and just to cleanse us of our sins. 1 John 1:9 and if we do that then we will have our confidence restored back in God and can ask anything according to his will and he will hear us and grant us our petitions we ask of him 1 John chapter 5.

You had better be absolutely sure that you know the difference, and don't make assumptions about what you think God might do with your unrepentant "unintentional" sin.

Now I have to say I am a little perplexed by this statement here from you Ovedya. I sorta get the impression from your statement that you do not believe once you become a Christian (a true believer) that you are no longer prone to sin and you want as a true believer fall into sin or be tempted by sin anymore. It's like you are giving the impression you are untouchable because you once believed. I don't know but the statement seems kind of harsh or something don't really quite know why you said it puzzled.

OC

[spiritman]

It has been repeated in this thread that, "neither idolators, drunkards, liars........will inherit the kingdom of the heavens." Yet there has not once been the proper distinction made that "those who practice such things" do so with intent and malice. No true believer "practices sin."

Hello ovedya,

The scripture above has in it's entirety been repeated in this thread as I have read it myself many times over and it is a scripture that is mentioned several times in the new testament and cannot be dismissed. One does not have to be full of intent or malice to do these types of sins that are mentioned within the said verse. Sometimes all it takes is being full of pride and not taking heed to yourself and then you fall. The cares of this life can lead one astray from God's care and one can go astray and mammon can become their God thus back into idlolatry. As the word says that the cares of this life choke the word of God within our hearts. One can be going through difficulties and turn to alchol for a solution to their problems or relief of stress and become a drunkard all the time as a result. One can become a liar for so many different reasons such as out of fear of what may happen to them if they tell the truth. All of these things mentioned along with the others can happen to believers all without intent and malice in their hearts toward God. For we are in the flesh and our flesh has times of weaknesses and temptations and trials that are all designed by Satan to lead us astray into these weaknesses of the flesh so that we will not walk in the Spirit.

There are wilful premeditated sins one can do as well even being a Christian for example the bible tells us not to let the sun go down on our wrath. This is talking about anger inside of us as we should settle things before we go to bed or else they will be there when you wake up first thing in the morning after you have stewed about them all night long perhaps thinking how you are going to get your revenge back on the person you had a falling out with. And if you don't settle it and let that anger go the next day you might do something out of spite you may regret and therefore sin in your anger as a result. This would be a example and a distinction done with intent and malice. As malice is also a sin and work of the old nature of the first Adam but if one would have obeyed the counsel of the Lord they would then have borne the peaceable fruits of righteousness and yielded themselves to the Spirit of God and had peace, temperance, love, joy all the fruits of the Spirit instead.

You said, "No true believer practices sin." No true believer is immune from the old nature of the first Adam as we still live in the flesh that wants and likes the pleasures of sin. No sincere follower of God wants to practice sin but true believers do have those times of testing from Satan in order to destroy their faith as he tries to lead them astray and a believer should not think so highly of themselves that they cannot be touched again with the ill's of sin through the temptations and trials Satan brings into their lives. For some slip and sin simple by not being on guard and having the armor of God on. Others get hardened by sin and do not seperate themselves unto God which is their reasonable service. Others sin out of malice of heart. There are so many things that can lead one to go astray and break their fellowship with the Lord. I would say that no true believer should desire to live a lifestyle of sin after they have been made a partaker of the divine nature of God the second Adam being Christ. For that is the test of their righteousness within to repent when they mess up and sin and not hide it from God as they need to come to God in their troubles and repent of the wrong they have done telling it to God until he removes it from them as He is faithful and just to cleanse us of our sins. 1 John 1:9 and if we do that then we will have our confidence restored back in God and can ask anything according to his will and he will hear us and grant us our petitions we ask of him 1 John chapter 5.

You had better be absolutely sure that you know the difference, and don't make assumptions about what you think God might do with your unrepentant "unintentional" sin.

Now I have to say I am a little perplexed by this statement here from you Ovedya. I sorta get the impression from your statement that you do not believe once you become a Christian (a true believer) that you are no longer prone to sin and you want as a true believer fall into sin or be tempted by sin anymore. It's like you are giving the impression you are untouchable because you once believed. I don't know but the statement seems kind of harsh or something don't really quite know why you said it puzzled.

OC

Cling Cling, Metal sharpens Metal

[RedeemedByHim]

This is how I look at "once saved, always saved." The only thing that can earn our salvation is by our belief in Jesus Christ. It is not works or any other thing that we do or say. OUr belief in Jesus and what He did for us is what gets us that salvation. Therefore, if belief is how we access salvation, then wouldn't it reason to say that unbelief would cause us to lose our salvation? Therefore, a person can only lose their salvation if they quit believing in Jesus Christ. And none of us can judge if a person believes or not.

For interesting sermons on today's issues you can go to www.5fold.org under sermon podcasts. God bless you all.

Yahwehsdaughter

Five Fold Ministries Training Academy

www.5fold.org

[Thaddaeus]

what is the reason for repenting:

Just some comments on the above question and a few others that relate directly to it, such as "Christ has already forgiven all of our sins, past, present and future".

There seems to be a continual thread of assumption in those that hold to some form of eternal security that Christ has forgiven sins. I'm going to assume that it is related to the Atonement, and by virtue of Christ dying upon the Cross forgave man's sins.

First, Christ forgave no man his sins. Not one single sin was forgiven on the Cross. The Cross made the forgiveness of sins possible ONLY because Christ propitiated those sins, the penalty of those sins. If that were actually true, then all of mankind is automatically spiritually saved. That is a whole new form of Universalism.

There is absolutely no forgiveness without repentance. It is stated this way all through the NT. Even in the OT. We have an obligation as believers to be reconciled to God. II Cor 5:20 Also Matt 5:24 relates to the Lord's Prayer and also the unfaithful servant. God holds us accountable also for those who wrong us. We are to forgiven them. We are to forgive them seventy times seven. There is no end to the forgiveness. As we forgive those who treaspass against us, so He will forgive our trespasses.

We MUST keep sin out of our lives. We must work to remain in Him and when we sin, we must seek forgiveness of those sins. Sin separates man from God. That is why daily confession is an absolute must in the life of a believer. There is no such thing as automatic forgiveness. No forgiveness without repentance/confession.

Another area is that of the long list of evildoers who will not enter into heaven. Some assume that believers cannot fall or resort to this kind of evil. The problem with evil is that it starts small, not very beguiling in order to begin to get a beleiver to slip and slide and work him over to the precipice. When a believer begins to rationalize, to make excuses he is well on the way to overt, willingly sinning and just simply overlooking it. This is probably the greatest danger to the view of OSAS. We become hardened to sin. We assume that we are automatically forgiven because we at one time believed. Yet, sin, moves one outside of being IN Christ.

At other places in this thread, comments questioning just how many sins does it take to fall from salvation. The answer is ONE. See the Story of Adam. A believer possesses a fallen human nature, will sin, he must make sure he is aware, even confess sin without knowledge, to make sure that He remains reconciled to God.

This is the anquish of Paul in Rom 7:13-25.

That is the reason for repenting.