Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Fady4Jesus]

I don't believe in this concept, as there is continous striving against sin, "Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin." and look also at "2Ti 2:5 And if a man also competes as an athlete, yet is he not crowned, unless he strives lawfully."

[Retrobyter]

I believe that people can lose their salvation when they choose to no longer walk with Christ. This doesn't mean that they were never saved. In actuality nobody has been saved yet. We are not until we walk through the pearly gates of Heaven. The way it stands we are under the promise of Heaven if we continue in Christ.

1 John 2:24-25 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

See, there is the use of the word "IF". IF we keep what was given to us from the beginning we will continue in Christ and receive eternal life. The opposite of this is that if we do not keep that which we have been given then we will not receive the promise.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

If Christ has done everything for us and all we need to do is have faith then why do we find a statement like this one?

We all fell short of the glory of God once and he sent his Son to be our redemption, but we can lose that redemption again when we choose not to continue in the faith and walk with Christ no more.

This does not mean that a person is lost - saved - lost - saved - lost, etc. When we are born again we are given a promise of eternal life, but that life is not received until the Day Of Redemption. In the mean time, we can lose that promise if we no longer walk Christ or choose not to repent of my sins.

Hebrews 4:9-11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The labour that we do are the works that we were ordained to walk in which is obeying the commandments of Christ. There is a work that we do as Christians and is fulfilled by living the gospel and repenting of our sins. Every time I repent of a sin I did a work in working out my salvation in fear and trembling. This is what it means to take up our cross and follow Christ and because of this labour we will enter into that rest which is eternal life.

We come short of this when we live our lives with unrepented sin or choose to walk with Christ no more.

On Sunday when I was waiting for the Lord's Supper to be passed to me I was reading the bible and came across this passage -

1 Corinthians 11:31-32 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now, chastening from God serves a purpose -

Hebrews 12:5-8 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

So we see here that God chastens us when we fall into sins. It helps us not to fall back into them. It's like spanking your children for doing something bad. It reminds them that if they do it again they could get spanked. This is all done for the good of our children so that they don't lead a life of corruption. The same is done with us so that we will repent of our sins.

Now, the point here is in the chastening of the Lord. We are chastened of Christ when we have sins that we are not repenting of. The purpose is for us to see the gravity of repentance and that sin, but look at the last of that verse -

"that we should not be condemned with the world"

We are chastened to repent of our sins so that we should not be condemned with the world. This means that if I choose not to repent of my sins that I can be condemned with the world. This would stand to mean that a Christian can lose their salvation and go to hell just like the world will be.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Those that DO the will of God are the ones who will make it into heaven. But what is the will of God?

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This also means this -

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

When we fall short of this even a Christians we can stand to lose the promise that has been given to us.

Shalom, my friend,

Sorry, but "heaven" means "the sky" (Hebrew: Shemayim; Greek: Ouranos); it doesn't have "pearly gates!" The New Jerusalem, the capital city of Future Yisra'el and the capital city of the New Earth, has those "pearly gates."

Retrobyter

If you believe in the bible you will see that there are more than one heaven -

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

There is the heaven which is the sky, heaven which is the universe, and heaven which Paul was caught up into.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

This makes at least three that we know of.

Shalom, cardcaptor!

While there are three "heavens," it's important to understand a few Greek words that come into play on this topic: First, the word harpazoo means "to snatch away" and has no implication to the direction of "up." The word "up" was supplied in translation into English simply because that is the direction for "heaven," but this still begs the question, "What is heaven?" HOWEVER, another very important word is ouranos, translated "heaven" and usually meaning "sky."

The concept of "first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode" was at least propagated by the Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) during the 50's through the 90's.

There are problems with this concept, however. For instance, where is "God's abode?" Consider the following verses:

Ps 139:7-10

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

KJV

Isa 66:1-2

66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

KJV

God is omnipresent--everywhere at the same time--where would be "His abode?"

Second, consider the following verses about our Lord Yeshua's answer to the P'rushim:

Matt 16:1-4

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

KJV

Something most people don't realize from these verses is that the word for "heaven" in verse 1 is the SAME GREEK WORD translated "sky" in verses 2 and 3! That word is ouranos. There are other Greek words rendered "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," or "heavenlies," but ALL of them are based on this Greek word. With the exception of "epouranios," all of the other words are still talking about the sky: Mesouraneema means "in the middle of the sky," and refers to where the birds fly. Only "epouranios," meaning "belonging to the region above the sky," could be talking about a place farther away than our atmosphere. It's only used a few times in the Bible.

No, I believe that Peter is better to listen to than Scofield. He gave a DIFFERENT interpretation for three heavens or three skies:

2 Peter 3:3-13

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (1), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (3), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

KJV

Not three heavens spatially, but three heavens (skies) CHRONOLOGICALLY! The first sky and earth were before the Flood of Noach's day; the second sky and earth are what we are in now; and the third sky and earth are what will be after the Fire, the New Sky and Earth described in Revelation 21 and 22!

Hope this helps.

Retrobyter

[exrockstar]

Everything you said is correct, but you have to look at both sides of the coin. When we are doing our best to live Christianity then everything that you said comes into effect, but when I choose to keep sin in my life not wanting to repent or if I turn my back and follow Christ no more then I will lose all of the promises he promised IF we continue.

every thing you are saying is dependant on SELF.

I believe that it is grace. Salvation is not dependant on me but rather God giving it to me

by believing in what Christ did on the cross.

If one believes salvation requires on how you personally act or behave then you are basing

salvation on yourself.

true......sorry

[EricH]

What would be really interesting in this discussion is rather than people simply supply their list of scriptures that back their position (which both sides can do), have an honest interaction with the passages that give your position the most trouble.

[Smalcald]

Good point eric.

I think for me, what does striving against sin really mean, what does intentionally sinning mean? What sins are unintentional and what sins are intentional?

If sin somehow causes us to lose our salvation then we need to understand in what circumstances these come into play. I am probably in the middle on this question. I don't believe sin can separate us from our salvation; Christ Himself has Chosen us for salvation, none of the people who's names have already been put into the book of life will be lost, however I think that there are people in our churches that don't have faith, but think that they do, and these unless they come to a true faith will be lost. So I don't know if that means I believe in once saved always saved or not, I am not sure exactly what that means.

Also the idea of "once" saved implies salvation is a one time event. We know from the numerous re-dedications, backsliding, falling away and returning etc, that obviously salvation does not mean a moment in time experience for everybody. God sometimes works in people's lives for decades before they fully come to faith or fully come to trust in Him enough to live as He would want us to live. I know people for example who first heard the Gospel decades earlier, then led lives of total debauchery, finally when they had nothing left, they remembered the Gospel that had been implanted somehow decades earlier, so God over all of that time was still with them working.

[st. Worm]

Good point eric.

I think for me, what does striving against sin really mean, what does intentionally sinning mean? What sins are unintentional and what sins are intentional?

If sin somehow causes us to lose our salvation then we need to understand in what circumstances these come into play. I am probably in the middle on this question. I don't believe sin can separate us from our salvation; Christ Himself has Chosen us for salvation, none of the people who's names have already been put into the book of life will be lost, however I think that there are people in our churches that don't have faith, but think that they do, and these unless they come to a true faith will be lost. So I don't know if that means I believe in once saved always saved or not, I am not sure exactly what that means.

Also the idea of "once" saved implies salvation is a one time event. We know from the numerous re-dedications, backsliding, falling away and returning etc, that obviously salvation does not mean a moment in time experience for everybody. God sometimes works in people's lives for decades before they fully come to faith or fully come to trust in Him enough to live as it would want us to live. I know people for example who first heard the Gospel decades earlier, then led lives of total debauchery, finally when they had nothing left, they remembered the Gospel that had been implanted somehow decades earlier, so God over all of that time was still with them working.

And for those who think sinning makes us lose our salvation, they apparently also believe that good works help us keep it. That whole paradigm rejects justification by faith alone as the instrumental cause of salvation. While on going willful sin can damage faith, it is only faith in Christ that saves us and only rejection of faith can cause us to lose the grace given us. The Bible clearly warns of falling away and making shipwreck of our faith in several places and not to take those warnings seriously is foolhardy. As for sin, too many Christians only worry about their obviously bad works and sin while failing to realize that even the very best their religion has to offer, the things they would consider their good works are still tainted with sin. At best we are unprofitable servants. Sinning does not cause loss of salvation, but rejection of Christ and faith in Him does. The Bible clearly teaches it is possible to do this.

sw

[EricH]

Good point eric.

I think for me, what does striving against sin really mean, what does intentionally sinning mean? What sins are unintentional and what sins are intentional?

If sin somehow causes us to lose our salvation then we need to understand in what circumstances these come into play. I am probably in the middle on this question. I don't believe sin can separate us from our salvation; Christ Himself has Chosen us for salvation, none of the people who's names have already been put into the book of life will be lost, however I think that there are people in our churches that don't have faith, but think that they do, and these unless they come to a true faith will be lost. So I don't know if that means I believe in once saved always saved or not, I am not sure exactly what that means.

Also the idea of "once" saved implies salvation is a one time event. We know from the numerous re-dedications, backsliding, falling away and returning etc, that obviously salvation does not mean a moment in time experience for everybody. God sometimes works in people's lives for decades before they fully come to faith or fully come to trust in Him enough to live as it would want us to live. I know people for example who first heard the Gospel decades earlier, then led lives of total debauchery, finally when they had nothing left, they remembered the Gospel that had been implanted somehow decades earlier, so God over all of that time was still with them working.

And for those who think sinning makes us lose our salvation, they apparently also believe that good works help us keep it. That whole paradigm rejects justification by faith alone as the instrumental cause of salvation. While on going willful sin can damage faith, it is only faith in Christ that saves us and only rejection of faith can cause us to lose the grace given us. The Bible clearly warns of falling away and making shipwreck of our faith in several places and not to take those warnings seriously is foolhardy. As for sin, too many Christians only worry about their obviously bad works and sin while failing to realize that even the very best their religion has to offer, the things they would consider their good works are still tainted with sin. At best we are unprofitable servants. Sinning does not cause loss of salvation, but rejection of Christ and faith in Him does. The Bible clearly teaches it is possible to do this.

sw

So, if you hold to perseverance of the saints, what passages are the mosti difficult for you to explain and why. The same for those that hold to conditional security

[st. Worm]

Good point eric.

I think for me, what does striving against sin really mean, what does intentionally sinning mean? What sins are unintentional and what sins are intentional?

If sin somehow causes us to lose our salvation then we need to understand in what circumstances these come into play. I am probably in the middle on this question. I don't believe sin can separate us from our salvation; Christ Himself has Chosen us for salvation, none of the people who's names have already been put into the book of life will be lost, however I think that there are people in our churches that don't have faith, but think that they do, and these unless they come to a true faith will be lost. So I don't know if that means I believe in once saved always saved or not, I am not sure exactly what that means.

Also the idea of "once" saved implies salvation is a one time event. We know from the numerous re-dedications, backsliding, falling away and returning etc, that obviously salvation does not mean a moment in time experience for everybody. God sometimes works in people's lives for decades before they fully come to faith or fully come to trust in Him enough to live as it would want us to live. I know people for example who first heard the Gospel decades earlier, then led lives of total debauchery, finally when they had nothing left, they remembered the Gospel that had been implanted somehow decades earlier, so God over all of that time was still with them working.

And for those who think sinning makes us lose our salvation, they apparently also believe that good works help us keep it. That whole paradigm rejects justification by faith alone as the instrumental cause of salvation. While on going willful sin can damage faith, it is only faith in Christ that saves us and only rejection of faith can cause us to lose the grace given us. The Bible clearly warns of falling away and making shipwreck of our faith in several places and not to take those warnings seriously is foolhardy. As for sin, too many Christians only worry about their obviously bad works and sin while failing to realize that even the very best their religion has to offer, the things they would consider their good works are still tainted with sin. At best we are unprofitable servants. Sinning does not cause loss of salvation, but rejection of Christ and faith in Him does. The Bible clearly teaches it is possible to do this.

sw

So, if you hold to perseverance of the saints, what passages are the mosti difficult for you to explain and why. The same for those that hold to conditional security

Its very clear that there are various passages that promise God will preserve us in the faith (1 Corinth 10:13, John 10:28-29, 2 Tim. 1:12, Phil. 1:6, Phil 2:13) but just as many passages that warn us against falling away (1 Corinth 10:12, Luke 8:13, 1 Tim 1:19, 1 Corinth 9:27, Hebrews 6:4-6, Phil 2:12). We can only reconcile them in an anti-rational way. God's promises in salvation are to be believed. But on the other hand the warnings of God are also his word to us and should be taken at their face value. The true believer will realize that he is no better than Hymanaeus or Alexander and no less subject to temptation than David and no less attracted by the world than Demas. When we live in certainty in ourselves and pride, thinking we cannot fall away we are in the greatest danger of doing so. The Christian life is a constant tension, believing the promises while also acknowledging our own helplessness and sinfulness. This is why I reject contemporary decision theology which is a breeding ground for pride and presumption since in that scheme ultimately salvation becomes totally dependent on our own decision and not on the work of Christ.

sw

[larryt]

What would be really interesting in this discussion is rather than people simply supply their list of scriptures that back their position (which both sides can do), have an honest interaction with the passages that give your position the most trouble.

Hi EricH,

I really don't have any passages that give me great trouble. I have pretty much reconciled most of the "hard" passages. To understand some of the explanations though there needs to be a great deal of foundation work. I know that I can do absolutely nothing, nada, zip, without Christ. That is what He said. With out Me you can do NOTHING. I couldn't choose Him to begin with and I can't keep my salvation. I am confident that He is able (not me) to keep that which I entrusted unto Him against that day.

I honestly don't see any verses that indicate loose of salvation, but I see a lot of verses that indicate that there are many false converts, who think they are saved but really are not. The doctrine of election has a lot to bear on this. Jesus says to those at the judgement that He NEVER knew them. Not that He knew them and they left but that He never knew them.

LT

[larryt]

No, the bible doesn't lie. People create contradictions when they use only certain parts of the bible to support their belief system.

Do you look at ALL the bible? I don't see any contradictions. Some paradoxes, and less as my walk goes on.

Everything you said is correct, but you have to look at both sides of the coin. When we are doing our best to live Christianity then everything that you said comes into effect, but when I choose to keep sin in my life not wanting to repent or if I turn my back and follow Christ no more then I will lose all of the promises he promised IF we continue.

What is that other side of the coin? I'm not TRYING to do anything. As I continue on this journey I find that more of me dies and the more I die the more I find that needs to die. Do you choose to keep sin in your life and refuse to repent? If we continue is the INDICATION that we are His disciples.

Joh 8:31