Ovedya Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted January 26, 2007 A man could serve the Lord faithfully for 60 years and through one act of sin, forfeit his salvation... Then you make God a liar, and trivialize the sacrifice of Christ. Everytime I hear that I "make God a liar," if feel like I am back debating New Pilgrim again. He used that argument all the time. He was wrong and so are you. I gave scripture to back up my position, and you failed to address it. I am going to re-post portions of it, and those interested should go back and read Ezekiel 33:11-20. This backs up what I said. Here is a portion of it: verse 13 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; BUT FOR HIS INIQUITY THAT HE HATH COMMITTED, HE SHALL DIE FOR IT. This addresses your example. A man can live a righteous life, but if he "commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered." "He shall die for it." It seems to me Ovedya that you are the one calling God a liar, not me. Jesus said that He gives the believers eternal life, and that they "shall by no means perish [Amplified: not in any way, shape or form] in John 10:28. By saying that the believers can perish or will perish, then you are making Him a liar, and His promise is not valid. Since I brought this verse up in the "Is it possible for ANY of Jesus' sheep to go to hell?" thread, you have not once addressed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Isn't that addressing those under the law? Exactly. Yes it is. We are no longer under the Law of Moses, but the law of the Spirit of life (Rom. 8:2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Believers yes, those who become apostate----no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Some OSAS proponents argue that a saved person can live no differently than the world and still be saved, even if they die in their sins. This is a common fallacy. It's never been proven that a single orthodox group teaches this kind of thing. Lots of churches teach grace only, and pretty much the same thing. They just know how to package it in a way that makes it more swallowable. The baptist church I used to attend off and on as a kid used to teach it in a more round about way. You could see the fruits of such teaching throughout the congregation. I can wait until you can provide an actual example. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils... Ovedya, I believe you know these things are happening, you are being hard headed. I don't think I am. I haven't yet seen a single practical example of an orthodox Christian group that teaches that a believer can be regenerated and live theri lives in any manner that they please. Of course there are plenty of groups that turn aside from the Way, but they are not considered orthodox by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2007 2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils... Ovedya, I believe you know these things are happening, you are being hard headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2007 A man was a Christian for 60 years, faithfully obeyed God's Word and abstained from sin. In a moment of weakness he lusted in his heart after another woman and, seizing the opportunity to give way to his lust, was in the actual act of committing adultery with the woman. During the commission of his sin he had a heart attack and died. The ones who promote OSNAS would have us all believe that the man went to hell. Utter and complete nonsense. God is unrighteous, unholy, and weaker than the power of man's free will if He doesn;t have the power to save us in spite of ourselves! Just curious where do you think the ultimate fate of Anninias and Sapphira in the book of Acts 5 was? As they both were new testament believers. Just thought I would ask seeing you know all about the riot that broke out in Ephesus and knew who the heathens were and all. OC There's no evidence from Scripture that Annanias and Sapphira were anything other than nominal Christians. Their intent was clear from the beginning. Riot in Ephesus? Scriptures say in Acts 4:32 that they were all believers and were all of one heart and of one soul (including Anninias and Sapphira) and agreed to sell their possessions. Anninias and Sapphira just gave into the temptations of Satan you can read in Acts 5 and gave into the sin plain and simple and died in their sins being caught in them as a result. You called Annanias and Sapphira nominal Christains so..... Are you saying that "nominal" Christians are not saved? Is that not judging anothers salvation? Annianias and Sapphira were believers they did not seem to be devout Christians sold out like the rest of the believers but nevertheless were believers in the church. So in essence you are saying those Christians who are nominal believers are not saved because they are not sold out to God right if not please explain? It would seem to me that your own view of nominal Christians goes directly against the view of OSAS theology entirely. Because once a believer, always a believer or as you said in another post you are calling Jesus a liar in your views and that the lukewarm believers in Revelation 3:16 can be spewed out which would also go directly against OSAS. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Scriptures say in Acts 4:32 that they were all believers and were all of one heart and of one soul (including Anninias and Sapphira) and agreed to sell their possessions. Anninias and Sapphira just gave into the temptations of Satan you can read in Acts 5 and gave into the sin plain and simple and died in their sins being caught in them as a result. You called Annanias and Sapphira nominal Christains so..... First, there is nothing in the passage to suggest that Annanias and Sapphira were anything other than nominal Christians. The first word in Acts 5 is "but..." which is indicative of a change - of something that contravenes the previous statement. So not only had these two not done likewise with their property, but they very well could have not been real believers in the first place. This is supported by Peter's statement "Why has Satan filled you heart?" Second, even if they were Christians that had intentionally committed the sins mentioned, there is no indication that their punishment was anything more than physical death. Are you saying that "nominal" Christians are not saved? Is that not judging anothers salvation? No, it is not. The Lord promosed that there would be tares in the church. The tares are Christians in name only. In Matthew 13:25, a tare is a kind of darnel, a weed resembling wheat. Its seeds are poisonous and can cause sleepiness, nausea, convulsions, and even death. The sprout and leaves of tares look the same as those of wheat. It is impossible to distinguish wheat from tares until the fruit is produced. The fruit of the wheat is golden yellow, but that of the tares is black. As explained by the Lord Jesus in Matt. 13:38, the tares are the sons of the evil one. Yet they are in the church, professing to be believers (Also read 2 Pet. 2:13-14; 17-22; and 2 Tim. 2:16-22). It is not unlawful or unrighteous to mark those in the church who cause stumbling and divisions (Rom. 16:17). It would seem to me that your own view of nominal Christians goes directly against the view of OSAS theology entirely. Because once a believer, always a believer or as you said in another post you are calling Jesus a liar in your views and that the lukewarm believers in Revelation 3:16 can be spewed out which would also go directly against OSAS. OC Verse 19: As many as I love I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore and repent." being spewed from the Lord's mouth is not equal to suffering eternal torment in the lake of fire (Which was prepared for the devil and his angels, by the way). There will obvioulsy be a dispensational punishment for those who do not follow the Lord's commandments. A good father or mother does not strike their child dead for being disobedient. They simply punish their child and restore them into the fellowship. God would not be a righteous Father for causing his children to suffer the same fate as those who willfully rebel against the gospel of His Son, Satan, and all other sons of the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPJr Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted January 26, 2007 A man could serve the Lord faithfully for 60 years and through one act of sin, forfeit his salvation... Then you make God a liar, and trivialize the sacrifice of Christ. Everytime I hear that I "make God a liar," if feel like I am back debating New Pilgrim again. He used that argument all the time. He was wrong and so are you. I gave scripture to back up my position, and you failed to address it. I am going to re-post portions of it, and those interested should go back and read Ezekiel 33:11-20. This backs up what I said. Here is a portion of it: verse 13 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; BUT FOR HIS INIQUITY THAT HE HATH COMMITTED, HE SHALL DIE FOR IT. This addresses your example. A man can live a righteous life, but if he "commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered." "He shall die for it." It seems to me Ovedya that you are the one calling God a liar, not me. Jesus said that He gives the believers eternal life, and that they "shall by no means perish [Amplified: not in any way, shape or form] in John 10:28. By saying that the believers can perish or will perish, then you are making Him a liar, and His promise is not valid. Since I brought this verse up in the "Is it possible for ANY of Jesus' sheep to go to hell?" thread, you have not once addressed it. Ovedya, you don't have eternal life....yet. Jesus does give the believers eternal life if they endure, and overcome, but not until he comes back and they are resurected. When they are raised they will be raised with incoruption and immortality. They don't have it yet. 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted January 26, 2007 The promise is a good one! I have eternal life even now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPJr Posted January 26, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted January 26, 2007 If once saved you cannot lose your savlation, then what about the unpardinable sin? If I am not saved, then that sin doesn't applt to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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