Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Kabowd]

Tom....do you even know what exegesis means? I'm asking that in all sincerity.

[apothanein kerdos]

1) History and context is great, but you havn't shown any. I on the other hand, as well as Cardcaptor and others, used exegesis and context by using other parts of the bible.

Tom, you don't even know what exegesis is, what it means, what it consists of, etc (you acknowledged this earlier). So please, don't try to offer it up as a justification.

Secondly, how have I not used the context and the history of the book? On both passages I explained why Paul was writing the book, the climate at the time, and the surrounding verses to draw out the interpretation. Justify your claims...this isn't a school yard, this isn't kindergarten, we can't just sit around and say "Nu uh" and expect people to accept it as a valid argument. Put some meat behind what you're saying (i.e. quote my responses on the passages and show where I failed to give the history and context).

2) you are correct that jonah denied Gods calling, but God didn't force him. He certainly coerced him, or persuaded him, but the choice was Jonah's. God works with big consequences for big responsabilities.

Shoving a person into a situation where they have no choice but to accept you is called coercion Tom.

3) If I'm not mistaken....I think God allowed Satan to walk away. And, oh....a third of the Agnels too...and I think that there might be a few hundred warnings to us about falling away.

Give me a scripture that:

1) Shows they are anthropological in their ontology

2) That they carry with them the imago Dei

3) That they were in a covenant with God to begin with

Why warn about it if there is no danger?

and,

If you think that those warnings weren't for believers, I'd like you to show me one.

We are never warned that we could fall away from God, that we could reject Him. The reason for the warnings have to do with relationship. In a covenant with God, if you neglect the relationship, life gets extremely difficult because He begins to remove protection (happiness, grace, etc) from you.

[Openly Curious]

So Greek, history, context, paradigm analysis, etc aren't "in depth" for you...even though they've been in depth for billions of people for the past 2,000 years? All of a sudden, Tom comes along and speaks with authority on what a passage means, and Greek, History, exegesis, just go out the window?

I think sometimes someone ignorant and unlearned can come along and speak with authority as the disciples did as they had been with Jesus. The gospel was not just to the educated as we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Somethings needs to be tossed out the window in my opinion.

Jonah was swallowed by the fish because he denied God and his calling. God forced him to go back.

No where in the scriptures do I find where Jonah denied God. Jonah did however run from his calling in what God was wanting him to go and do which was to preach to the capitol city of Assyria being Nineveh. As this was a Gentile nation in which he was to go and preach repentance unto and if they would not repent then God was going to destroy that nation as a result. This was a type and shadow of the gospel being preached to the Gentile nations as Jonah in the belly of the fish was a type of Christ in the heart of the earth three days and nights before His resurrection from the dead. In the past the Assyrians had been very cruel to the nation of Israel and mistreated them as they were in bondage to them hence Jonah's anger at the end of the story when they repented. God however never forced Jonah to go back as Jonah came to the realization of what God was trying to do through his life and when Jonah learned what it was it was at that time he chose to obey God and do what God wanted done and that was that the salvation message be proclaimed to the Gentile nations so that His glory would be in all the earth as a result.

Abraham had Ishmael, and God forced him to give him up to remain in His Will. Hosea (as a representation of God) forced Hosea to come back to him (as a representation of Israel).

No where does it say that God forced Abraham to give up his son Ishmael to remain in His Will. It just said that Ishmael was not the chosen heir of promise is all. Ishmael was still very much a part of Abraham and Sarah life and was cared for as all of the rest of Abraham's children were. But Issac was given by promise of God in whom the covenant would be established through and not Ishmael. But God did make of Ishmael descendants a nation. Just as He did with Isaac's decendants being Jacob in whom the nation of Israel came into existence.

Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it. For it was the nation of Israel as a whole that had turned it's back on God and went a whoring on God playing the harlot and being unfaithful to God in the relationship and not Hosea.

You cannot look at the covenants of the Bible, between God and man, and find one instance where God allowed the other person to walk away without Him promising to force them back, or bringing them back immediately. It NEVER occurs.

You can read of such an instance in the book of

Numbers 14:34--latter part of that verse God Himself says, "and ye shall know my "breach" of promise."

as that generation died in the wilderness and God took their children to the promised land after that 40 years was up and they was all dead. God never forced them back but let em die in unbelief for breaking their covenant with God as they went a whoring on God. So God broke his covenant with them and disinherited that entire generation as a result never forcing them to repentance or coming back to him as it was to late. IT DID OCCUR.

OC

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Y'all!

Someone slinging that someone else doesn't know his Greek or exegesis. That isn't what this thread is about if I read the thread right. It's about G-d. And, if we are all Believers in Messiah, we should be able to discuss without the sarcasm and insults, right?

Can we all say GRACE?

[apothanein kerdos]

I think sometimes someone ignorant and unlearned can come along and speak with authority as the disciples did as they had been with Jesus. The gospel was not just to the educated as we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Somethings needs to be tossed out the window in my opinion.

All of them, however, became educated after being with Christ. The fact is, when someone who has well studied disagrees with someone who isn't studied at all in scripture on the matter of interpretation, the former is inevitably going to trump the latter. The Holy Spirit operates through our soul and MIND. If your mind is mush, if you haven't worked on it, then there isn't much there for Him to work with, now is there?

No where in the scriptures do I find where Jonah denied God. J

So you separate sin/rebellion and denying God? They are the same thing.

God however never forced Jonah to go back as Jonah came to the realization of what God was trying to do through his life and when Jonah learned what it was it was at that time he chose to obey God and do what God wanted done and that was that the salvation message be proclaimed to the Gentile nations so that His glory would be in all the earth as a result.

So God didn't coerce Jonah at all? Really?

Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it.

Really? Are you serious?

Hosea 2:15 - Therefore, behold, I will allure her,

Bring her into the wilderness

And speak kindly to her.

Hosea 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up her way with thorns,

And I will build a wall against her so that she cannot find her paths.

Both of these give the imagry of Him FORCING Israel/Gomer to return to Him, they have no choice in the matter.

You can read of such an instance in the book of

Numbers 14:34--latter part of that verse God Himself says, "and ye shall know my "breach" of promise."

as that generation died in the wilderness and God took their children to the promised land after that 40 years was up and they was all dead. God never forced them back but let em die in unbelief for breaking their covenant with God as they went a whoring on God. So God broke his covenant with them and disinherited that entire generation as a result never forcing them to repentance or coming back to him as it was to late. IT DID OCCUR.

Really? So Israel never took the Promised Land? Because, if they didn't, you'd be correct. If, however, they did, your point no longer counts considering that the covenant was made with Israel and that covenant was fulfilled...God killed those who would not follow, but He did not remove Israel from His covenant with them.

Someone slinging that someone else doesn't know his Greek or exegesis.

Because it's vital to this discussion. We can't simply take whatever scripture looks like it supports our point, and then gladly use it in spite of what the context might do to the interpretation.

[Kabowd]

Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it. For it was the nation of Israel as a whole that had turned it's back on God and went a whoring on God playing the harlot and being unfaithful to God in the relationship and not Hosea.

Um...nowhere did any of us suggest it was Hosea who was rebelling. We've repeatedly said it was GOMER (who represented Israel). This changes things drastically. You're viewing it from the wrong paradigm. I'd suggest you re-read it, as you didn't even approach the story in the right context.

[Kabowd]

I think sometimes someone ignorant and unlearned can come along and speak with authority as the disciples did as they had been with Jesus. The gospel was not just to the educated as we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Somethings needs to be tossed out the window in my opinion.

All of them, however, became educated after being with Christ. The fact is, when someone who has well studied disagrees with someone who isn't studied at all in scripture on the matter of interpretation, the former is inevitably going to trump the latter. The Holy Spirit operates through our soul and MIND. If your mind is mush, if you haven't worked on it, then there isn't much there for Him to work with, now is there?

No where in the scriptures do I find where Jonah denied God. J

So you separate sin/rebellion and denying God? They are the same thing.

God however never forced Jonah to go back as Jonah came to the realization of what God was trying to do through his life and when Jonah learned what it was it was at that time he chose to obey God and do what God wanted done and that was that the salvation message be proclaimed to the Gentile nations so that His glory would be in all the earth as a result.

So God didn't coerce Jonah at all? Really?

Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it.

Really? Are you serious?

Hosea 2:15 - Therefore, behold, I will allure her,

Bring her into the wilderness

And speak kindly to her.

Hosea 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up her way with thorns,

And I will build a wall against her so that she cannot find her paths.

Both of these give the imagry of Him FORCING Israel/Gomer to return to Him, they have no choice in the matter.

You can read of such an instance in the book of

Numbers 14:34--latter part of that verse God Himself says, "and ye shall know my "breach" of promise."

as that generation died in the wilderness and God took their children to the promised land after that 40 years was up and they was all dead. God never forced them back but let em die in unbelief for breaking their covenant with God as they went a whoring on God. So God broke his covenant with them and disinherited that entire generation as a result never forcing them to repentance or coming back to him as it was to late. IT DID OCCUR.

Really? So Israel never took the Promised Land? Because, if they didn't, you'd be correct. If, however, they did, your point no longer counts considering that the covenant was made with Israel and that covenant was fulfilled...God killed those who would not follow, but He did not remove Israel from His covenant with them.

Someone slinging that someone else doesn't know his Greek or exegesis.

Because it's vital to this discussion. We can't simply take whatever scripture looks like it supports our point, and then gladly use it in spite of what the context might do to the interpretation.

Exactly. I mean...how foolish is it to reject what someone says who has not only studied it more thoroughly (and properly) versus someone just giving their opinion? That isn't wisdom folks, that's the definition of foolishness. Scripture teaches that the wise walk with the wise. It's time to use your minds and love God with them.

[Openly Curious]

Have you read the story of Hosea and Gomer? Honestly, it's pretty self-explanatory. Hosea represents God, Gomer represents Israel...their marriage represents God's covenant with His people. Everyone keeps saying the covenant is conditional, that we can just "walk away". After reading the story of Hosea/Gomer (and God and Israel), it is impossible to still hold this view without entirely misrepresenting the concept of "grace" and a "covenant".

Yes, I have read the story of Hosea and Gomer. As Hosea was a prophet of God as God was using him to speak his words to the nation of Israel through the word picture that was being displayed through his adulterous wife. The story represents the falling away of God's chosen people Israel as they had left God and went back into idolatry. The bottom line they left God and went astray from the relationship they had with God and broke their end of the covenant as they did not keep it with God and was like the adulterous women. God through the prophet Hosea was trying to get them to see what they had done in order for them to realize and come to a place of repentance and return unto Him with all their hearts.

Regarding the covenant with Abraham, the point that is repeatedly overlooked is that Abraham was ASLEEP while the covenant was SEALED. In other words, Abraham was not responsible for any of it...God did it ALONE, by HIMSELF. Nothing hinged on Abraham. This is why we keep saying you have to take the whole of Scripture...not just pluck verses here and there that might appear to say that salvation can be lost. To take these verses prima facie (at face value) without comparing them to the entirety of Scripture does a tragic injustice to God's redeeming grace and love.

The covenant with Abraham came in a vision. (Genesis 15:1-7). Abraham was awake at this point as the word of the Lord came to him.

Then you find this question from Abraham in Genesis 15:8--wherby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

As God then instructed Abraham in Genesis 15:9-11 to get the sacrificial animals God wanted him to sacrifice and Abraham obeyed and did it as he drove the birds away from taking the pieces that was layed out.

Then in Genesis 15:12 when the sun was going down a deep sleep fell on Abraham and God shared with Abraham in verses 13-16 that his future decendants being the Hebrew children in the text being referred to would spend 400 years in Egyptian bondage and when that time was up God would bring them out with great substance and you can read the book of Exodus that He did just that.

Then you can read where God let Abraham know that he would inherit the promises of this covenant in Genesis 15:17 as God accepted the sacrifice Abraham was instructed to do as the covenant was sealed at that point as a covenant is always sealed by "blood." (Hebrews 9:16-22) All covenants between man and man and between man and God were always "sealed" by a blood sacrifice.

Cardcaptor is not educated in Greek or Hebrew (that I'm aware of), nor does he understand the historical context that the Scriptures were written in. Listing verses and writing your own little paraphrase is not equal to "interpretation". This is called opinion. It's also how cults get started and is no way to approach the Holy Word of God.

Cardcaptor is educated by the Master and has an understanding beyond text books. For God teaches us as well. It is also called God's opinion.

OC

[Floatingaxe]

Cardcaptor is educated by the Master and has an understanding beyond text books. For God teaches us as well. It is also called God's opinion.

OC

Here, here! Let's hear it for the normal intelligentsia!

[Openly Curious]

oc--I think sometimes someone ignorant and unlearned can come along and speak with authority as the disciples did as they had been with Jesus. The gospel was not just to the educated as we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Somethings needs to be tossed out the window in my opinion.

AK--All of them, however, became educated after being with Christ. The fact is, when someone who has well studied disagrees with someone who isn't studied at all in scripture on the matter of interpretation, the former is inevitably going to trump the latter. The Holy Spirit operates through our soul and MIND. If your mind is mush, if you haven't worked on it, then there isn't much there for Him to work with, now is there?

Yes, that is what I just said, being with Christ can make one smart beyond text books. As far as your other analogy goes it just depends on which one is the smartest in whom trumps who.

oc--No where in the scriptures do I find where Jonah denied God. J

AK--So you separate sin/rebellion and denying God? They are the same thing.

I am saying that Jonah did not go and publicly deny that God was God and that he no longer believed in Him. As that is the way I took you to mean so that is why I said what I did in that regards. I do seperate sin, rebellion and denying God as they are three seperate things which all may lead to the same results in the end but they are seperate things from one another.

Sin is wilful transgression against God.

Rebellion is not listening to what God says to you personally

Denying God is an outward act one does wanting nothing to do with God like apostle Peter did when they arrested Jesus three times before the cock crew he denied knowing the Lord Jesus Christ publicly. As they are three different things.

God however never forced Jonah to go back as Jonah came to the realization of what God was trying to do through his life and when Jonah learned what it was it was at that time he chose to obey God and do what God wanted done and that was that the salvation message be proclaimed to the Gentile nations so that His glory would be in all the earth as a result.

So God didn't coerce Jonah at all? Really?

In my opinion God did not coerce Jonah at all. But God used Jonah's situation knowing what he would do and gave Jonah as a sign to the nation of Israel in how that He Himself was going to turn to the Gentile nations so that His glory would fill all of the earth at their rejection of the Messiah as this was a sign the only sign that was given. God did teach Jonah however His divine will and purpose through it all.

Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it.

Really? Are you serious?

Hosea 2:15 - Therefore, behold, I will allure her,

Bring her into the wilderness

And speak kindly to her.

Hosea 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up her way with thorns,

And I will build a wall against her so that she cannot find her paths.

Both of these give the imagry of Him FORCING Israel/Gomer to return to Him, they have no choice in the matter.

Yes, really I am serious. The scriptures you provide are to the nation of Israel to return as the prophet of God was true in his relationship with God and God used Hosea to speak unto his people. Hosea did not go astray as you are suggesting but the nation of Israel however did. Notice the "HER" in the scriptural text provided by you. It wasn't Hosea for He was being used by God as God's voice during that time period as Israel straying from God as thus Gomer did from Hosea's marriage.

There was no force. There is no force in "alluring" there is no force in "speaking kindly" there is chastisement from God in hopes they will repent and return on their own seeing the error of their ways but no force it is all up to them to return freely of their own choice or not. Even after chastisement from God one is not forced by God to return never.

You can read of such an instance in the book of

Numbers 14:34--latter part of that verse God Himself says, "and ye shall know my "breach" of promise."

as that generation died in the wilderness and God took their children to the promised land after that 40 years was up and they was all dead. God never forced them back but let em die in unbelief for breaking their covenant with God as they went a whoring on God. So God broke his covenant with them and disinherited that entire generation as a result never forcing them to repentance or coming back to him as it was to late. IT DID OCCUR.

Really? So Israel never took the Promised Land? Because, if they didn't, you'd be correct. If, however, they did, your point no longer counts considering that the covenant was made with Israel and that covenant was fulfilled...God killed those who would not follow, but He did not remove Israel from His covenant with them.

Yes, really those that were 20 years old and upward did not take the Promise land. As they wandered for 40 years and died never recieving the promises of entering into the promised land there carcases were left in the wilderness. So I am correct. My point does stand as that entire older generation was cut off and did not inherit. The generation that died in the wilderness was included in the covenant and said they would obey God and do as He said do but they disobeyed and broke the covenant with God and went astray in unbelief and was cut off because of it as God did not honor His end of the covenant with that generation and waited till that entire generation died off as they never entered the promised land. God removed that generation because of unbelief.

He did not remove those who believed in God as there was Joshua and Caleb the only two of the spies who believed the good report that they could take the land. The others however did not believe and died in it in the wilderness and God took their children and let them take and inherit the land instead. As if one doesn't want to believe God will find another to take their place.

OC