TomPJr Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Can we post this up where all the smokers on the board can see? Is nicorest a sin as well? Dan Pardon me dgolvach....but I am a little confused on whare you stand and what point you are trying to get at. Can you share with me what you believe about OSAS It kind of sounds to me like you are playing "the devils advocate" to get a response... Like I said though, I am a little confused on where you are going with your statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted January 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted January 31, 2007 That is axactly my point to Christians who become aware of there sins. (They are now obligated to repent) God is merciful, but sooner or later the time of probation will close and we will face judgement if we don't repent. Remember Eric, that not all Christians know everything...We are on a path with God, and new truths are imparted to us along the journey. I don't believe that if all our sin was shown to us at one time that we could bear it, so we are shown a little at a time. Some Christians do things that God doesn't want us to do and they don't realize it. But once they are brought into the light and are convicted about it then they are responsible to repent. I will get more scripture for you....I was busy and short for time before. Tom I will wait for the additional scriptures, but your problem here is that you are attempting to apply a passage that deals with how God treated unbelievers before Jesus came and immediately after, to how God treats people who have already entered into a relationship with Him and know him personally. The meaning of the passage doe not allow the application you are making. God's grace in allowing unbelievers to hear and respond to the gospel cannot be used to prove that God only shows believers certain sins at certain times. The text simply does not say or support that, period. Nor does it say that if believers dont repond when they are shown they will not be "unsaved and unsealed". The Acts passage only deals with God's dealings with those who have never know Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgolvach Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 110 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,254 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 Can we post this up where all the smokers on the board can see? Is nicorest a sin as well? Dan Pardon me dgolvach....but I am a little confused on whare you stand and what point you are trying to get at. Can you share with me what you believe about OSAS It kind of sounds to me like you are playing "the devils advocate" to get a response... Like I said though, I am a little confused on where you are going with your statements. I am useing questions to make a point before I back up my belief that salvation is secure. Sometimes communicating on the net can be a bit cloudy because I'm really not trying to be a wise guy. Its a little humor sprinkled in and I don't mean to offend. I suppose it might come off a little differant. So I am sorry if I was offencive. My point is that the claims you are making about salvation will surely damn us all. None of us live up to that. There are areas in our lives that havent been surrenderd to God. If we were completely surrendered we would never sin at all. We are practically still sinners. I know people who preach this while they are smoking.. Please allow me some time to put a biblical case together for OSAS. God Bless Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgolvach Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 110 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,254 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 What about the smokers? I will light a cigar maybe once or twice a year. Does this mean I have 6 months to repent in between smokes? I plan on doing it again. Its simple. Does our salvation hinge on Christ or our ability to overcome every sin including the small ones. Dan Here is your answer - James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. If you know that is good to avoid smoking and you don't do it then you sin. Whether God will hold that against you is up to him. All I can do is read the scriptures where is says that the wages of sin is death. You could be taking it in your own hands by flirting with God by purposely sinning. We could be like the Jews in the wilderness - Psalms 78:40-41 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. I have to ask myself everyday what sin am I going to allow to stay in my life that could take me to hell. It only takes one sin to keep us out. The sin that we would not repent of, not the ones we are working on, but the ones that I justify to keep in my life. Yes the wages of sin is death. This is why your current currupt body is dying. You will recieve a new body at the resurection that will be free from the effects of sin. Paul in his letter to Timothy said " I am the chief of all sinners". Notice he didn't say I was. I will conceed that if someone sins and feels good about it, they are in trouble and I would question if they are truely saved because being saved takes all of the fun out of sin. Still, believing in your ability to keep the law and believing that Jesus died for your sins are not in concert with one another. Your not trusting Jesus, rather yourself. Legalism is not freedom nor is it "Good News" (gospel). Nor is it amazing grace. Theres nothing amazing about grace thats only there when you are strong. If you could be sinless enough to enter heaven, Jesus would not have subjected himself to a horrible death on a cross. That method of execution was born out of hell itself. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 1, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2007 #1 - That sin is personal (i.e. it depends if the HS convicts us of it to make it sin) There are some sins that could be personal. There are certain liberties that some Christians allow that others don't. It doesn't mean that the liberty is a sin perse. It just goes back to the conscience and what does my conscience allow. I won't put it all down here, but Romans 14 is a very good chapter speaking of these liberties. Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Liberties are things that could be concieved as wrong, but has no direct commandment against it. For instance, some people think that watching TV is wrong and others don't. Now, if I believe that watching TV is wrong in the sight of God that is between me and God. Romans 14:22-23 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Now, if I go against my own conscience and watch TV while in the back of my mind I have deemed it wrong then I sin. Not because I watched TV perse, but because I went against my conscience. Our consciences will never be the same and they will be on all sorts of levels of knowledge and understanding. If I know to do good and do it not then I sin. If I go against my own conscience then I sin. The example in Romans was two people eating meat offered to an idol. One man's conscience allowed him to eat of the meat because he know the idol was nothing and all meat is good before God if giving thanks, but if I don't have the same knowledge and understanding as he does and go against my conscience to eat then I sinned. Not for eating, but for going against my conscience. So, a sin can be personal on whether my conscience allows it or not, but I have to be educating my conscience to the word of God. I think you may be generalizing these passages too much. Romans 14 deals with areas that are not expressly called sin in scripture, yet over which believers have differing convictions. paul uses diet as an example. Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but don't argue about doubtful issues. One person believes he may eat anything, but one who is weak eats only vegetables. One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat; and one who does not eat must not criticize one who does, because God has accepted him. Romans 14:1-3 HCSB The issue here is how to genuine believers deal with each other when they disagree over issues over which scripture is silent (like whether or not a vegetable diet is preferable) Paul seems to indicate that the one who cannot each vegetables is actually weaker in the faith, than one who can. But neither one should regard himself as better than the other, because in terms of these "doubtful issues" God has given people differing convictions based on their level of maturity. This passage does not teach that all areas of life should be treates as such. For example, one could not use this passage to maintain that if one did not have a conviction agains straling, or murder, that those things would not be sin for them. This passage only deals with doubtful issues. #2. That any sin not repented of before death leads to a loss in salvation This is a very wide question and has to handled delicately. We can only answer to what the scriptures teach us and they say that the wages of sin is death. We also know that there is a sin unto death - 1 John 5:16-17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We believe and teach that the "sin unto death" is a sin not repented of. We get this from the scriptures that teach us that sin will keep us out of heaven. Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Here is the issue. Neither of these passages make any such statement These are verses speaking of Christians not inheriting the kingdom of Christ because of their sins. 1 John 5:16-17 does not specify what the sin is that leads to death. You seem to have inserted your theological presuppositions onto the passage so that the sin unto death is simlly any sin that is "unrepented of". The problem is that the passage does not say that Ephesians 5:3-6 does not state that believer who do these things will lose there salvation. What it states is that people who do those things do not possess salvation. The term "sons of disobedience" is never applied to believers in the NT. It is only applied to unbelievers. Notice in vs 7 and following that Paul says believers were formally like them, but are no longer. There is nothing i the passage that states that people who do thises things and don't repent will lose there salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPJr Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted February 2, 2007 That is axactly my point to Christians who become aware of there sins. (They are now obligated to repent) God is merciful, but sooner or later the time of probation will close and we will face judgement if we don't repent. Remember Eric, that not all Christians know everything...We are on a path with God, and new truths are imparted to us along the journey. I don't believe that if all our sin was shown to us at one time that we could bear it, so we are shown a little at a time. Some Christians do things that God doesn't want us to do and they don't realize it. But once they are brought into the light and are convicted about it then they are responsible to repent. I will get more scripture for you....I was busy and short for time before. Tom I will wait for the additional scriptures, but your problem here is that you are attempting to apply a passage that deals with how God treated unbelievers before Jesus came and immediately after, to how God treats people who have already entered into a relationship with Him and know him personally. The meaning of the passage doe not allow the application you are making. God's grace in allowing unbelievers to hear and respond to the gospel cannot be used to prove that God only shows believers certain sins at certain times. The text simply does not say or support that, period. Nor does it say that if believers dont repond when they are shown they will not be "unsaved and unsealed". The Acts passage only deals with God's dealings with those who have never know Him. I don't have a problem here... you said that God doesn't show us certain sins at certain times....So you know all of your sin all the time right? I bet that you become aware of new sins every so often on your walk with God...I know that I do, and many others that I speak with do to. No matter if you are an un-believer or a believer, their will be sins of ignorance, unless you know everything and understand everything about Gods will. I am humble enough to admit that I don't know it all, but I also know that to be willfully ignorant is sin, and to be willfully ignorant of Gods will for us to be on a road of repentence is very deadly. And, People can lose their salvation....Why do you think the bible speaks of peoples names being blotted out of the book of life. They were once in a saved state, but their names were removed from the book. also, Satan and his angels were created perfect, once in a saved state in heaven for who knows how long, and he chose to rebel and lost his salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPJr Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 387 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/11/1977 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I am particularlly interested in the scriptures that prescribe what you are saying: 1. That sin is personal (i.e. it depends if the HS convicts us of it to make it sin) 2. That any sin not repented of before death leads to a loss in salvation Cardcaptor, are you in agreement with this? Hello Eric, I will try to answer these as best as possible. #1 - That sin is personal (i.e. it depends if the HS convicts us of it to make it sin) There are some sins that could be personal. There are certain liberties that some Christians allow that others don't. It doesn't mean that the liberty is a sin perse. It just goes back to the conscience and what does my conscience allow. I won't put it all down here, but Romans 14 is a very good chapter speaking of these liberties. Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Liberties are things that could be concieved as wrong, but has no direct commandment against it. For instance, some people think that watching TV is wrong and others don't. Now, if I believe that watching TV is wrong in the sight of God that is between me and God. Romans 14:22-23 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Now, if I go against my own conscience and watch TV while in the back of my mind I have deemed it wrong then I sin. Not because I watched TV perse, but because I went against my conscience. Our consciences will never be the same and they will be on all sorts of levels of knowledge and understanding. If I know to do good and do it not then I sin. If I go against my own conscience then I sin. The example in Romans was two people eating meat offered to an idol. One man's conscience allowed him to eat of the meat because he know the idol was nothing and all meat is good before God if giving thanks, but if I don't have the same knowledge and understanding as he does and go against my conscience to eat then I sinned. Not for eating, but for going against my conscience. So, a sin can be personal on whether my conscience allows it or not, but I have to be educating my conscience to the word of God. #2. That any sin not repented of before death leads to a loss in salvation This is a very wide question and has to handled delicately. We can only answer to what the scriptures teach us and they say that the wages of sin is death. We also know that there is a sin unto death - 1 John 5:16-17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We believe and teach that the "sin unto death" is a sin not repented of. We get this from the scriptures that teach us that sin will keep us out of heaven. Ephesians 5:3-6 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. These are verses speaking of Christians not inheriting the kingdom of Christ because of their sins. We know that God is a very merciful God and that he is a very wrathful God against sin. I believe on judgement day that we will be judged by how energy I put in repenting from my sins. I may have not overcome all of them, but I believe the mercy of God will come in and say, "Well done, thou faithful servant", but if I die in sins that I did not want to give up then my soul will wind up in hell. God does search our hearts and he knows who is trying to do his will and who is trying to have their cake and eat it to. There are people who do walk this earth professing to be Christians yert live in sins that they don't think they have to give up because God knows their hearts. What he does know is that they are living in sin. I can't say who will go to hell for what other than what the scriptures say. They are filled with sins that will take people to hell if they don't repent of them. Not repenting of them means that I don't want to give them up. So, if my conscience tells me that smoking is a sin and I choose to ignore my conscience then I am sinning. If I die in this state then there is a very good chance I could go to hell. The question should be if I am willing to take that chance? 2 Peter 3:9-10 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. When Christ comes back as a thief in the night will he catch me in unrepented sins? Eric, I hope that answered your question. I tried to keep it short without murdering it. Jeff Good stuff Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted February 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2007 That is axactly my point to Christians who become aware of there sins. (They are now obligated to repent) God is merciful, but sooner or later the time of probation will close and we will face judgement if we don't repent. Remember Eric, that not all Christians know everything...We are on a path with God, and new truths are imparted to us along the journey. I don't believe that if all our sin was shown to us at one time that we could bear it, so we are shown a little at a time. Some Christians do things that God doesn't want us to do and they don't realize it. But once they are brought into the light and are convicted about it then they are responsible to repent. I will get more scripture for you....I was busy and short for time before. Tom I will wait for the additional scriptures, but your problem here is that you are attempting to apply a passage that deals with how God treated unbelievers before Jesus came and immediately after, to how God treats people who have already entered into a relationship with Him and know him personally. The meaning of the passage doe not allow the application you are making. God's grace in allowing unbelievers to hear and respond to the gospel cannot be used to prove that God only shows believers certain sins at certain times. The text simply does not say or support that, period. Nor does it say that if believers dont repond when they are shown they will not be "unsaved and unsealed". The Acts passage only deals with God's dealings with those who have never know Him. I don't have a problem here... you said that God doesn't show us certain sins at certain times....So you know all of your sin all the time right? I bet that you become aware of new sins every so often on your walk with God...I know that I do, and many others that I speak with do to. No matter if you are an un-believer or a believer, their will be sins of ignorance, unless you know everything and understand everything about Gods will. I am humble enough to admit that I don't know it all, but I also know that to be willfully ignorant is sin, and to be willfully ignorant of Gods will for us to be on a road of repentence is very deadly. And, People can lose their salvation....Why do you think the bible speaks of peoples names being blotted out of the book of life. They were once in a saved state, but their names were removed from the book. also, Satan and his angels were created perfect, once in a saved state in heaven for who knows how long, and he chose to rebel and lost his salvation. The issue is that you are attemtping to apply a scripture that addresses a specific issue and set of circumstances (unbelievers coming to God) and apply it to another set of circumstances that do not line up. It is not proper hermeneutics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epainos Posted February 3, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/01/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. NKJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted February 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. NKJV This phrase is what is commonly called an hyperbole, an extravagant exaggeration. In the whole context it is meant to show that Christ died and could only die once and that His death was super-sufficient. The impossibility is that a believer cannot be renewed to repentance if they fall away because then Christ would have to die again. This verse has nothing to do with eternal security/OSAS. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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