Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[apothanein kerdos]

The Bible tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling--live it out--- and yes, we can fall away by choice. It's about faith--either it is weak or strong. FAITH in Christ, but works has nothing to do with one's salvation. Either the Lord knows us or He doesn't.

Salvation is found by faith in Christ through His shed blood. Stop making a morbid game out of this.

If salvation is by faith in Christ, then it cannot be lost, because then it becomes a covenant with Him in which He sanctifies us and causes us to do good works. However, if we can walk away, it becomes a work. Our salvation becomes dependent on our works, ergo, a work's based salvation. It's not a game, I'm merely showing you the conclusion of your beliefs.

Here we go again. It is not works, nor is it OSAS. It is by the work of Jesus Christ, but by our faithlessness, we can become lukewarm and even reprobate...it is sin.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith.

In other words, make sure we are theologically sound in our faith, if not, then we never had genuine faith. So now you believe in Eternal Security.

[AMB]

If we don;t maintain it and slip into apostasy, then we can lose our standing in God.

Then you believe in works based salvation.

The problem with your arguement is that though I can be saved by faith . . . by receiving the free gift . . . says nothing about you walking away from that.

I already addressed this in a previous post...a previous post you failed to respond to. Why are you rehashing what has already been dealt with?

You can walk away from a free gift.

Where did I say it was a free gift? It's not...it's a covenant that we enter into.

Still, your silence in responding to my previous post is...uncanny.

My bad, what post are you talking about? Is one able to set this up so you are notified when one of your posts have been responded too? Sorry I'm fairly new here.

Ah, you might not of said it is a free gift, but the bible did, and again, it is not God that breaks His covenant with us, it is the opposite . . . He is true until the end, ready, willing, and able to save all who endure until the end, who do not wander, and if they do, if they return with repentance He is still faithful to them to do all He has promised. These are the ones He will not blot out from the book of life. And again, sin is not what constitutes wandering, for we've all sinned and fallen short . . . no, it is those who willfully turn away and harden their hearts . . . it is not the sin, it is the refusal to humble themselves to God, and continue in sin . . . with the attitude of "OSAS, or His grace is sufficient for me" . . . I can't fathom someone actually doing this . . . but I think it is possible. Walking away says nothing about God's power or ability to keep in complete integrity, it is completely in the heart and will of the individual.

Thank you for you replies.

[apothanein kerdos]

Ah, you might not of said it is a free gift, but the bible did

Where?

[AMB]

Ah, you might not of said it is a free gift, but the bible did

Where?

Rom 5:15-18 KJV

(15) But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

(16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.

(17) For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

(18) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:15-18 NLT

(15) But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of forgiveness to many through this other Man, Jesus Christ.

(16) And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins.

(17) For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and His gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one Man, Jesus Christ.

(18) Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.

[AMB]

Ah, you might not of said it is a free gift, but the bible did

Where?

Rom 6:23

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Floatingaxe]

The Bible tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling--live it out--- and yes, we can fall away by choice. It's about faith--either it is weak or strong. FAITH in Christ, but works has nothing to do with one's salvation. Either the Lord knows us or He doesn't.

Salvation is found by faith in Christ through His shed blood. Stop making a morbid game out of this.

If salvation is by faith in Christ, then it cannot be lost, because then it becomes a covenant with Him in which He sanctifies us and causes us to do good works. However, if we can walk away, it becomes a work. Our salvation becomes dependent on our works, ergo, a work's based salvation. It's not a game, I'm merely showing you the conclusion of your beliefs.

Here we go again. It is not works, nor is it OSAS. It is by the work of Jesus Christ, but by our faithlessness, we can become lukewarm and even reprobate...it is sin.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith.

In other words, make sure we are theologically sound in our faith, if not, then we never had genuine faith. So now you believe in Eternal Security.

NO! Stop harassing me with your inane attempts to label what I, and I believe most Christians believe! Salvation is received by faith through grace, and it propels us on to good works. OSAS is something that is true only in those who actively are walking and growing in Christ throughout life....otherwise it is lie to believe that you can accept salvation and continue to live without consecration. The only works that saves us is Christ's work on the CROSS.

[TomPJr]

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think it is the actual sin that causes us to lose our salvation, but it turning away from Christ and His truth.

That is what sin is though. In fact, that's a very good definition of it. Anytime we sin, we are putting aside and turning away from God's law and truth.

Yes, but sin for some occurs hourly, some may go a long time without sinning . . . but a sin is not what causes you to turn away from Chirst, that is a hardening of the heart, that is when a person can deny or walk away from the truth . . . that is when they wander away, that is when they don't endure, and it is those that will be blotted out of the book of life. I am seeing that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I do believe I can reject Christ, although he would never reject me, I can reject Him, regardless of how crazy that may seem to us that are born again . . . some can and will fall away.

For whatever the reason, some just think that they can say a pray and they are saved . . . they enter the born again club and never really enter into a realionship. They are deceived and most likely just had a head conversion, which is likely to be a very large part of the church right now.

What does this have to do with the debate? No one who actually believes in eternal security, that is, has studied the doctrine and understands it, believes what you just presented. We do not believe a single prayer changes us, but instead the Holy Spirit enters and changes us. We state that salvation is man asking God to come in and change us, that it is our act of crucifixion to Christ, in which He enters us and thus begins a battle between that which is sinful in our mind and that which is Godly. However, we also believe that He is faithful to finish the work that He began in us. How can we fall away from what He has begun, are we more powerful than God?

Are we more powerful than God, no of course not. He can only work through our cooperation with Him when it comes to our own eternal salvation. He can complete it, if I cooperate with it . . . he is not going to cross my free will . . . say I lose a love one, and hate God for it and "never" go back to Him, I don't think He would force it apon me. He would always be waiting and able and faithful to every promise in His word if I was to turn back to Him, but if I don't, I chose.

Instead, eternal security is not a free guide to sin. Instead, we believe that through sanctification, a true Christian will not want to sin, or will desire Christ more so than he does sin. Someone that accepts Christ and continues on with no change has not been saved, period. Salvation is proven through sanctification.

I agree, we are always growing as long as we press into Him. But some will not press, some will not endure, some will wander, and some will fall away and some will be erased from the book of life.

There is another group that get born again and then dive into the scripture to gain the correct theology and doctrine . . . they are very versed in the scripture, but still don't have a relationship with Him . . . just as the religious people of Jesus' time. They thought eternity was in the scriptures, but they refused to have a relationship with Him. (John 5) I beleive this is a picture of many in the church now, many either just join the born again club, others desire to just get their theology or doctrine correct . . . but again eternity is to know God (John 17). . . not just His scripture. It is a personal relationship that is as intimate as the one with your spouse.

What is eternity? Jesus said it is to KNOW God. Know here indicates very intimate relationship with Him. This is Jesus speaking . . . you can know all the scripture you want, and even speak greek and hebrew, and still not know God, but it is the relationship with Christ that brings eternal salvation.

You cannot have a relationship with Christ if your doctrine is not correct and you do not study the Word. We are told the greatest commandment is to love God with all of our strength, heart, and mind. In both the Hebrew and Greek (in Deuteronomy where it is originally quoted, and then in all four Gospels) it means the intellectual, or rational, study of God. If you ignore this aspect, and do not seek out proper theology, then you will not have a good relationship. It is like trying to have a relationship with your spouse without ever getting to know who she is, where she comes from, and what her views on things are.

Hmmm I would have to disagree some with part of this. I agree we need to meditate on the Word, hands down it is our bread of life, without we would be lost. I also agree we must come to him with all of our strength, heart and mind. But the intellectual or rational part is where we deviate, or perhaps we do not, it is just important not to over emphasize our intellectual capabilities, and not submit to the leading of the spirit, which I am sure you would completely agree:

Rationalism is reliance on reason as the basis for estabishment of religious truth; a theory that reason is in itself a source of knowledge superior to and independent of sense perceptions. This does has a place in that it allows us to obtain Logos, it is calculated, it is cognitive and analytical, and uses much academic study but a christian who only develops his mind flows with only a knowledge of Logos, and not rhema. It is the Spirit that reveals rhema to us, of course through the logos. But I am sure we agree on this.

We are to be Spirit led, driven and enlightened. This is where logos turns into rhema, the truth about what God is speaking to me, but it is grounded in Logos.

Again, I don't beleive it is the "sin" that causes you to walk away from God, but a condition of the heart, but know where does it say I cannot walk away form him by choice . . . why somebody would, I don't know, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You're using an argument from silence, "Because the Bible doesn't say I can't walk away, it must mean I can walk away." This logic doesn't work. The Bible also doesn't say that I will die if I jump out of a plane, ergo, if I jump out of a plane I will live.

It does say to those that endure, and James says that those who wander from the truth, and "remain" in that state will die, referring to the soul. John says there is a sin unto death for believers . . . and he is not talking physical death. Rev. says I will not blot out their names . . . but the opposite is true. 2 Peter 2 talks of those whose end is worse for them than the beginning, because they knew the way of righteousness. They fell away, they walked away, they chose to deny Christ . . . do you think He would cross our free will?

In addition, sin occurs within the heart, therefore, if it is a heart condition, then it is a sin condition. All sins are manifestations of what has already occurred within - thus, anytime we sin, we have exposed a weakness in our heart, and have possibly lost our salvation.

You are twisting it now, it is not sin that keeps a sinner from God . . . it is the relationship. Eternity is to know God. In the greek to know means to have an intimate growing relationship with Him. If you turn away from Him, and your heart is hardened, and you choose to not return, you've lost that relationship. You chose to deny Him. Yes I believe He is always ready and willing and able to complete the work He started in you, but you have to cooperate with Him, you have to draw near to Him, you've got to give Him your everything, we are colaborers with Christ. He won't cross our free will, it is up to us to choose life or death. Now his grace will give us all we need to stay in that place with Him, but we still have to choose it, it is not forced upon us, it is a free gift that we must recieve, and cherish and endure with, and not wander from.

Anyways, I just want to say HE is so good, and so faithful, and amazing . . . I just love the truth of His Word, the Presence of His Spirit, and the fellowship that comes from submitting to Him, He amazes me daily . . . I know you will all agree with that. What have you done for your King today? God bless.

[TomPJr]

The Bible tells us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling--live it out--- and yes, we can fall away by choice. It's about faith--either it is weak or strong. FAITH in Christ, but works has nothing to do with one's salvation. Either the Lord knows us or He doesn't.

Salvation is found by faith in Christ through His shed blood. Stop making a morbid game out of this.

If salvation is by faith in Christ, then it cannot be lost, because then it becomes a covenant with Him in which He sanctifies us and causes us to do good works. However, if we can walk away, it becomes a work. Our salvation becomes dependent on our works, ergo, a work's based salvation. It's not a game, I'm merely showing you the conclusion of your beliefs.

Here we go again. It is not works, nor is it OSAS. It is by the work of Jesus Christ, but by our faithlessness, we can become lukewarm and even reprobate...it is sin.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves to see if your faith is genuine. Test yourselves. Surely you know that Jesus Christ is among you; if not, you have failed the test of genuine faith.

In other words, make sure we are theologically sound in our faith, if not, then we never had genuine faith. So now you believe in Eternal Security.

NO! Stop harassing me with your inane attempts to label what I, and I believe most Christians believe! Salvation is received by faith through grace, and it propels us on to good works. OSAS is something that is true only in those who actively are walking and growing in Christ throughout life....otherwise it is lie to believe that you can accept salvation and continue to live without consecration. The only works that saves us is Christ's work on the CROSS.

Hello F.A.

I think that I agree with you somewhat...

I know that we have disagreed on other threads, and even this one from time to time. It's probably because of our inability to translate our true ideas with written word.

I do believe, however, that we do have to do a work to be saved. The work that I am speaking of is love and repentence. We must have love and a repentent heart. If we don't realize this then it makes it easy for one who is weak to presume on their salvation and become comfortable in the sins which they do not want to forsake. I think that you are speaking of the person who has been transformed in their minds and converted already to a life of self denial and love for Gods will. But...I think that the debate comes in where someone might publicly declare that they accept Christ and even be babtized, and not really be converted....these people are not saved yet, even though they go around proclaiming that they are. I believe that salvation comes with conversion, not just say8ing that you've accepted Christ and are saved.

I know of many people who say "I was saved in (whatever year)" and they go back to their regular ways, maybe altering a few bad habbits, but mostly living however they want because they are presuming on their salvation and aren't really converted.

I think that the converted individual will continually be finding areas in their life to correct and will desperately want to forsake his/her fleshly desires and choose to live for Christ.

So....my point is....just because a person says they accept Christ, or is baptized....that doesn't mean that they are truly saved. The salvation comes with conversion.

once you are converted, I highly doubt that you will backslide.

[apothanein kerdos]

NO! Stop harassing me with your inane attempts to label what I, and I believe most Christians believe! Salvation is received by faith through grace, and it propels us on to good works. OSAS is something that is true only in those who actively are walking and growing in Christ throughout life....otherwise it is lie to believe that you can accept salvation and continue to live without consecration. The only works that saves us is Christ's work on the CROSS.

Then you believe in eternal security.

Let me break this down for you.

You state that our initial act of salvation comes by faith, likewise, that faith produces our good works. The Bible states that faith is begun by, and finished by, God. It says when we initially accept Christ, we die to ourselves and enter into a covenant with Him. In this covenant, He takes control. It is therefore impossible to render up our faith when we are not in ultimate control of our faith. This does not make us robots, but merely shows that Christ has put us on a road of sanctification, a road from which we cannot depart. The reason is we belong to Him at that point. Notice how the Bible uses strong language when referring to our salvation, that we are adopted into the family of God, that we were bought with a price. The "bought with a price" is key...can we steal ourselves away from God? Of course not. Thus, when you make it a completely faith matter, then you cannot fall away. Those that do fall away had no faith to begin with, i.e. were not saved.

At the point you deny works, you HAVE to believe in eternal security, or, you have to deny the Sovereignty of God.

[apothanein kerdos]

And notice how you fail to use exegetical rules to give us an interpretation of those scriptures. Instead, you take a prima facie approach...which 90% of the time will lead to bad doctrine. Care to extrapolate each and every one of those scriptures, giving us the context, the historical context and how this influenced what was being said, and how the Greek furthers the support of your idea?