Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

Rhonda Lou,

13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14), which says that the Holy Spirit is a seal guaranteeing our redemption. This means once saved, always saved. Those opposed to once saved always saved say, what about this verse?

It does not say that the Holy Spirit is guaranteeing our redemption. It says the Holy Spiirt is guaranteeing our inheritance. Our inheritance will remain, it is irrevocable, but we will only inherit it if we are faithful, if we overcome. Read I Pet 1:4-5, the inheritance is reserved for you upon faithful completion of your life here on earth.

These terms have been carried over into our secular area probably because of their meaning from scripture.

These are terms of a contract, an agreement. A mortgage is such an agreement, a covenant.

Two parties enter into an agreement. Both sides have stipulations in order to complete that contract. You make a down payment, a pledge to the cost of a house. The bank lends you the remainder as a mortgage. You agree to make payments on a regular basis until total is paid.

You do not own the house in the real sense, you have taken possession of it. It is yours, BUT ON THE STIPULATION THAT YOU ALSO PAY THE FULL AMOUNT. Now, if you do not, the bank has not agreed to give you the house anyway with a clear title.

The salvation of our souls is precisely the same thing. We put a deposit of faith, called justification, we enter into a covenant in which we pledge to continue with faith. If we continue and we do not default, we shall inherit the title at the end.

OSAS says that when we make the deposit we have guaranteed the title no matter what we do after we enter the contract. The OSAS has two views on this. either that a person with a mortgage cannot absolutely ever fail to honor his obligation or if he does, he still will inherit the title. It simply depends on making the deposit and whether we pay or don't pay, we shall be given the title. That is not how a mutual covenant works, either in scripture, nor in the real secular world of business.

For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery (Hebrews 6:4-6).

If there is any text that clearly refutes OSAS it is this one. It gives a very clear description of a believer. It clearly describes him as fallen from being IN Christ. Only a believer can be IN Christ, and only a person IN Christ is being saved.

The Greek does not have the word "if" in the phrase, "fallen away". It is a statement of fact, that those fallen cannot be renewed to penance. It is generally accepted that this refers to a very thoughtful, active, calculated denial and rejection of Christ. It is also why the Bible explains quite clearly that those once tasted or once having been a believer, become unfaithful will suffer a greater condemnation than anyone else.

How is it that the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing a future redemption AND that those who have "tasted also the heavenly gifts" could lose the very salvation promised in Ephesians 1:13-14? Since we both believe that the Scriptures are ALL inspired, and that there are no contradictions in them, how do these "fit together"?

no contradiction. See above.

These people have "tasted" of the Holy Spirit because they've been to church all of their lives, maybe, have taken the Eucherist, or Holy Communion, have even been baptized, carry out good works kidy as those whom Jesus said He didn't know in the Sermon on the Mount -- they have access to the truth, but have never incorporated the entire truth into their being and allowed God to transform them.

But this is the precise biblical definition of a believer. This is why we know that some do and can fall away. They in fact were being transformed, that is exemplfied by the sharing and participating in the means of Grace by which one is healed.

People are at an impasse when it comes to those Scriptures.

That is because they are depending solely on their own ability and skill in attempting to interpret a partial Gospel, only the portion that was written, which is not a treatise in the first place.

What is key is has it always been believed and understood this way. It is the very first test of a false teaching. Does it have historical authenticity as having been preserved from the beginning. Lets take an example of the very first Ecumenical Council at Nicea. Arius had developed a different understanding of the Trinity. He was teaching it to the detriment of other believers to the Church, the bishops met to discern and determine which was correct. Both sides came armed to the teeth with scripture. But the Truth as it was determined, which is known as the Rule of faith, is that the Trinity understanding that we have today is what had always been beleived and understood by the Church during the first three centuries before. So it has been with all other false teachings. It is from the beginning, is it based on the Rule of faith. That is the authorty of Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Gospel once given and preserved by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ.

The Bible, of itself, has no authority whatsoever. It is a book after all. A recorded history of the interaction of God with man. The Authority is Christ, the Holy Spirit, and not man attempting to interpret on his own ability and strength. Especially when the Bible speaks against this very act.

I have a friend who refuses to believe Ephesians 2:8-9 because, in his mind, it doesn't track with James 2:26, and as he believes James 2:26, he refuses to believe in Ephesians 2:8-9.

they only conflict with you understand them to be saying the same thing. They are not, they are speaking of two very distinct different things.

[Thaddaeus]

exrockstar,

i thought faith was :Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

the journey that you talk about is the spritual walk Paul addresses.

Yes, precisely, and that is the salvation of ones soul. That is why it is important to remain on that journey, to remain faithful, to remain in fellowship, in the relationship, in union, and communion with God. Outside of that journey we are no longer being saved.

enter and inherit are both different.

This is absolutely correct and I pointed out to Rhonda as well. But you have also taken two contexts and put them together as being the same, which they are not.

To enter is justification by faith, repentance, acceptance of Christ, by baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit. That is the mark of the beginning journey for a believer, a Christian, entered into the new Covenant, we are IN union with Christ.

Once we enter, we are obligated to remain in order to inherit the promise of eternal life with Christ at the end of our earthly life. This is what I Pet 1:4-5 is also saying.

[exrockstar]

exrockstar,

i thought faith was :Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

the journey that you talk about is the spritual walk Paul addresses.

Yes, precisely, and that is the salvation of ones soul. That is why it is important to remain on that journey, to remain faithful, to remain in fellowship, in the relationship, in union, and communion with God. Outside of that journey we are no longer being saved.

so your faith relies on the journey and not the whole point of Christ being the Messiah, Him being our savior and accepting Him as such.

i see why we differ.

[Thaddaeus]

exrockstar,

so your faith relies on the journey and not the whole point of Christ being the Messiah, Him being our savior and accepting Him as such.

i see why we differ.

No, not at all. It is actually the other way around. The journey depends on my faith. Faith in believing He is the Christ, the Savior of the world, not just me. But in believing and asking by repentance to enter into the communion for which I was created as a human being was the purpose of Christ saving me from the fall and total destruction.

You fail to understand that we did not need to save ourselves, because we could not anyway, Christ did it for us. But He did it for every single human being who will ever live. The purpose of the Work of Christ was to restore mankind to his created position of having the free choice of entering into fellowship with Christ. That fellowship is why and what we were created to be and do. It has nothing to do with Christ's work on the Cross specifically as to requirements. The requirement is the obligation we have as created human beings and fulfilling the mandate of our existance.

But that journey is held by the faith we have in Christ. It is how we remain In Him. But that walk is a life lived IN Christ. That requires a lot of effort and work which is not done alone but with God. It is what Adam was doing with God before he sinned. A position to which man was restored by the Work of Christ on the Cross. He overcame the fall, the condemnation, the judgement against mankind through Adam.

If all you have is faith that Christ saved the world, but do not live as He requires for those who have entered into the Covenant with Him, then you are still lost. There is a significant difference between the two aspects of salvation.

You want to conflate them.

[TomPJr]

I want to say something though...LarryT seems to think that once saved you can not commit sin... I would like to know if he believes he is saved, and if so...does he ever sin? (rhetorical question).

If you cannot lose your salvation in this life then there would be no need to warn and warn and warn believers to repent and keep on track. It seems pretty simple to me.

There is an exception to the rule though.... I do believe in OSAS when Jesus comes back. If you remember in prophesy it is foretold that there is a probationary period and at the end of it God will say let the wicked be wicked still and let the righteous be rightous still. Only then does OSAS truly apply. Untill then we must gaurd our Souls from the Devil who wishes to get us of the narrow road to heaven and lead us down the wide easy road to the lake of fire. You nor I know what tomorrow brings or if we are truly saved. Many people like to believe that they are saved and cannot fall away, and thus become extremely vulnerable to temptation, because they don't fear condemnation. The only thing that we know for sure is that God wants to save us. We have certain instructions to follow in order to gain salvation (ask forgiveness, repent).

Jesus gives us a free gift (pardon, salvation)

We must accept it (ask forgiveness, repent)

Hi TomP,

Have you read 1John 3:9? I have asked for anyone from the LOS side to reconcile it with their theology. How would you explain that verse in light of your understanding?

Your statement about how you think I take that verse shows that you probably don't understand the New Birth. 1John 3:9 is talking about the New Birth, the New Man, the New Creation in Christ Jesus.

By the way consensus will never change the Truth of God's Word. Theology is not a matter of how many people agree as to what it is but what the Holy Spirit shows is the truth.

I am sorry that you do not know that you are truly saved for in the same 1John, John mentions many time that we KNOW, and that we might know. I do know. And by Gain do you mean earn? Can you add anything to the work of Christ?

LT

If you are walking in the light then you are saved...however if you are walking in darkness, how can you be sure?

Many will come to Jesus saying Lord Lord, but they will be lost.... They knew and uderstood and believed, but they had not the will to walk according to the light.

The work of jesus was to pave the road to get from here to there....we still have to walk on it.

Faith without works is dead, so if you have no works, then you should question your walk and your salvation, but be carefull, many will have good works and will cast out demons in jesus' name, but still will be lost because they had not love.

[larryt]

I want to say something though...LarryT seems to think that once saved you can not commit sin... I would like to know if he believes he is saved, and if so...does he ever sin? (rhetorical question).

If you cannot lose your salvation in this life then there would be no need to warn and warn and warn believers to repent and keep on track. It seems pretty simple to me.

There is an exception to the rule though.... I do believe in OSAS when Jesus comes back. If you remember in prophesy it is foretold that there is a probationary period and at the end of it God will say let the wicked be wicked still and let the righteous be rightous still. Only then does OSAS truly apply. Untill then we must gaurd our Souls from the Devil who wishes to get us of the narrow road to heaven and lead us down the wide easy road to the lake of fire. You nor I know what tomorrow brings or if we are truly saved. Many people like to believe that they are saved and cannot fall away, and thus become extremely vulnerable to temptation, because they don't fear condemnation. The only thing that we know for sure is that God wants to save us. We have certain instructions to follow in order to gain salvation (ask forgiveness, repent).

Jesus gives us a free gift (pardon, salvation)

We must accept it (ask forgiveness, repent)

Hi TomP,

Have you read 1John 3:9? I have asked for anyone from the LOS side to reconcile it with their theology. How would you explain that verse in light of your understanding?

Your statement about how you think I take that verse shows that you probably don't understand the New Birth. 1John 3:9 is talking about the New Birth, the New Man, the New Creation in Christ Jesus.

By the way consensus will never change the Truth of God's Word. Theology is not a matter of how many people agree as to what it is but what the Holy Spirit shows is the truth.

I am sorry that you do not know that you are truly saved for in the same 1John, John mentions many time that we KNOW, and that we might know. I do know. And by Gain do you mean earn? Can you add anything to the work of Christ?

LT

If you are walking in the light then you are saved...however if you are walking in darkness, how can you be sure?

Many will come to Jesus saying Lord Lord, but they will be lost.... They knew and uderstood and believed, but they had not the will to walk according to the light.

The work of jesus was to pave the road to get from here to there....we still have to walk on it.

Faith without works is dead, so if you have no works, then you should question your walk and your salvation, but be carefull, many will have good works and will cast out demons in jesus' name, but still will be lost because they had not love.

Hi Tom,

Thank you for getting back. Your first statement is correct. In God there is no darkness.

Your second statement is not entirely correct. Jesus said that He never knew them. And if He never knew them they surely did not know Him. Also they surely did not believe. They were trusting in their own ideas and beliefs.

Your third statement, if I understand you correctly says that Jesus only provided for salvation. This is incorrect. Jesus didn't provide for me to be saved and then leave it up to me to obtain it. If it was up to me it would have never have happened.

You are correct in the 4th statement about the works faith relation. The works only indicate that the faith is real. If there are no works there is not faith. the last part of that statement is incorrect in that they will be lost because they never knew Jesus and therefore never knew the love of God. We love because He first loved us.

So how do you interpret John's statement that says that we cannot sin?

LT

[damo1]

I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY?

from damo1

ever heard of free wil jesus never forces him self on us though i have been going threw what some have stated its a touchy subject yet i am going to be diffrent hear i belive that once a person is saved they stay saved the only time a person falls or slips is when they look back to the past or want to hold on to what it was like in the past and if you go threw the living word of god you wil see wear many also have fallen

galations 2= 20

i have been crucified with christ and i no longer live but christ

lives in me

the life i live in tbe body i live by faith in the son of god who loved me

and gave him self for me

one question why on earth would some one who is a christian be asking this question as this opens up to arguments and i do not belive in geting into any arguments hear and this can be mis leading as well so i would be asking your self wear are you with god in your own walk do you belive that once saved on is always saved ?

[Guest Greg Davies]

Bless God! I thought I was done with this topic. It was seeming so pointless to continue. But LarryT (I think, it gets rather confusing who writes what after awhile) brought up I John 3:9. What a great scripture!

This scripture really nails it for me. Let me break it down. Truth #1: He that is born of God doesn't sin. What? how do we reconcile this with I John 1:8? The rest of I John 3:9 explains it: His seed (God's incorruptible seed, the new spirit we receive when we are born of the Spirit [i Pet 1:23,Titus 3:5]) remains in him (the believer). It's the new spirit that cannot sin and therefore cannot be lost!

Truth #2: The sin we do have and commit (I John 1:8) is on the soul level where our eternal relationship is developed. This is where we suffer any loss (I Cor 3:15) if we don't do our best to walk in the newness of life or the light, properly related to Jesus and His body.

The Matt. 7:21-23 reference gives us an example of this. Here we find people who do things "in the Name" (to me, that means they are saved [new spirit] and water baptized [in the Name]) and yet are called workers of iniquity. I believe that means that they were walking in darkness, not loving the bretheren. They did their works for personal or sellfish motives instead motivated by love of the bretheren (I Cor 13).

So, in conclusion, yes we can lose our salvation as it applies to our soul, what we have to work out by walking by faith, and no, we cannot lose our salvation as it applies to our new spirit that we receive by grace, not by works.

So we all agree now, right? Greg.

P.S. Another helpful scripture is II Cor 1:10. The word deliver in the KJV is also translated as saved. Three levels of salvation: body, soul, and spirit.

[Thaddaeus]

larryt,

Your third statement, if I understand you correctly says that Jesus only provided for salvation. This is incorrect. Jesus didn't provide for me to be saved and then leave it up to me to obtain it. If it was up to me it would have never have happened.

This is the crux of the misunderstanding of scripture by proponents of OSAS. There are two salvations spoken of in Scripture. OSAS wants to put the two together, thus they miss the whole understanding.

If we are speaking of believers, then, yes, Christ simply provided for our salvation. The salvation it is emphasizing is the salvation of our souls. This aligns with the purpose of our being created. If man (Adam) had never sinned, he (we) would be working synergistically with God in "saving his (our) soul". Adam was not created eternal, nor mortal, but needed to work with God to bring the created order back to God as a living sacrifice. This is what we are doing as believers. We do this as if the fall had never taken place. This is so because the SALVATION that Christ provided was to overcome the fall. Man cannot save himself from the fall. That is why Christ is the only one that can perform that work. He did what we cannot do, so that we might do the things we were created to do.

Thus, he surely did leave it up to you to save your soul. Your judgement in the last day is determined on what you did with the Christ. Did you enter into His Kingdom, were you a faithful servant in that Kingdom, or did you never enter, or did you depart at any point.

He left it up to man to work with God. It is the whole purpose of creation and it is what we fell from, unable to do because of the fall. Christ removed the fall, now we can do what we are supposed to do, an obligation of our being created first, saved to do, secondly.

You are correct in the 4th statement about the works faith relation. The works only indicate that the faith is real. If there are no works there is not faith. the last part of that statement is incorrect in that they will be lost because they never knew Jesus and therefore never knew the love of God. We love because He first loved us.

Loss of faith is loss of salvation. We are saved ONLY through our faith. No one has yet found a text that says we are saved in spite of losing faith, or that we are saved because we became unfaithful. Find one, even a hint of one and you have a begining of proof that you cannot lose your relationship with Christ.

[Thaddaeus]

Greg Davies,

P.S. Another helpful scripture is II Cor 1:10. The word deliver in the KJV is also translated as saved. Three levels of salvation: body, soul, and spirit.

the death refered to here is physical death. The condemnation of Adam to mankind. The death that Christ needed to reconcile for mankind. The change from mortal to immortal. Christ overcame death so that we might live both ways, physical and spiritual. Those are the ONLY two deaths and the ONLY two salvations.