Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[eric]

Yo AK your reply to cardcaptor,

So what you're saying is that our minds must be regenerated, to know that when we sin it is wrong, and even if we do not immediately repent, we will at some point because we have been changed.

Congrats, you believe in eternal security.

Unless you get over knocked by a bus and die before you do repent.

[Eliyahuw]

The labour that we do is the repentance of sin. If we live our lives repenting of our sins the we have done the will of God and we will recieve the good for it, but if we chose to keep sin in our lives then we will recieve for the bad we have done.

The labour that we do are the works we do in working out our salvation and the works we do to show our faith. We do them in fear and trembling because we can still go to hell for committing the same sins God forgave us for is we don't repent of them.

You do realize there are two judgements! One for christians and one for everyone.

The one for christians only is the one where we receive our rewards or wear shame for our successes and failures on earth.

That is waht that last verse was about.

[Eliyahuw]

Yo AK your reply to cardcaptor,

So what you're saying is that our minds must be regenerated, to know that when we sin it is wrong, and even if we do not immediately repent, we will at some point because we have been changed.

Congrats, you believe in eternal security.

Unless you get over knocked by a bus and die before you do repent.

Well guess that means if we jay walk and get hit, were screwed then, no matter if we managed to live a perfect life up until that point. Kinda makes salvation completely pointless now doesn't it!

[AMB]

The doctrine of Christ says that Christs sacrifice was enough to save us from our sins and give us everlasting life. Where does it say you have to work for a gift?

A gift is a gift, something freely given, with no expectation of anything in return.

For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast.

Is Christ a liar??

Either he said it was a gift, or he is a Liar. You my friend have a conundrum here.

Thanks for the reply my friend. It is interesting that you would think that I am questioning the integrity of our saviour by pointing out scriptures, but that is a point of view you've chosen to take. We are all here to grow, and we should do that in love.

I didn't think you were questioning, I posed a problem that you haven't addressed. Christ said

For by Grace are ye saved, through faith and that not of itself. It is the GIFT Of God, NOT OF WORKS, less any man should boast.

If his blood is not sufficent for salvation, then that would make him a liar now wouldn't it!

IF we say works are required, then we would be saying christ is a liar! Because he said salvation is a Gift and not even works is needed in the above verse!

From my viewpoint, right or wrong, I don't think someone walking away from Christ has anything to do with denying the doctrine of Christ . . . Christ is still faithful to those that endure. The gift is given, but you can deny a gift, you can walk away from a gift, if I don't recieve and treasure the gift then is it forced apon me? No. The gift itself is a treasure, that should be treasured, something we can not earn. I have not said we have to earn the gift, but we can walk away from the gift. Do you have all the gifts you ever been given? No, none of us do, but the ones we cherrish we keep, and we protect them and put them in a place of honor. The same is true with the gift of salvation, from what I beleive the scriptures are saying.

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Note the words Any man. That includes ones self.

I don't remember saying it wasn't a gift . . . why are you arguing that? I agree completely. Walking away from Christ does nothing to the integrity of the Word, or what He is willing to do. It is our will that deny's Him, not His doing. His gift is available to us, free, and it is given by faith, I agree completely, and I don't believe He would take it back, but the scriptures I quoted seem to indicate that we can walk away from our gift.

I posted in my last post the requirements to be able to walk away from that gift. Its impossible to do. You would have to have received the 9 gifts of the spirit before turning into apostacy. Name one person out there that has all 9 gifts.

Does the word not say faith without works is dead . . . and does not Phil 2:12 say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

So yes, the gift is free and can be accepted by faith, but what we do with the gift will determine our outcome.

Does it say the road is narrow because it will not have trials you'll have to work through. And what if I don't work our my salvation with fear and trembling and continue in sin and sit around saying I am saved by faith, he knows how weak I am, His grace is sufficient to me. I believe we need to press toward the prize. There are eternal rewards and judgements that we will all have to face.

The above portion there you said, doesn't deny Eternal security. Yes there are rewards and there are judgements. But you cannot be tried at the Great White Throne.

Of clarification, the word says it is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Him . . . so as long as something in you is asking the questions, and searching out truth, you would still be saved. Those that lose their salvation have no desire to get back into right standing with God. It is like they are completely shut off to His truth and influence.

Then that would be a moot point if they are truely saved to begin with. Because if they are saved, God will remove them before they become in danger of apostacy. He will deliver their body to Satan and bring their spirit home.

1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I once beleive OSAS, but those that choose to harden their hearts and walk away and deny him, and have no desire or inner conviction about knowing Him intimately, I believe they can walk away from their free gift.

I would say they were never saved to begin with

if they could taste of the spirit, taste of the word, taste of the baptism of the holy spirit..

there is no way they can turn away far enough to jeapordize their salvation.

To agree with you, it is a free gift . . . but by me denying that gift and walking away from it does nothing to the person that gave me the gift . . . Jesus' integrity and the truth of the Word will always remain.

The problem with the belief that one can lose their salvation is that it leaves one to sacrifice christ multiple times.

Oops you sin, so yo lose salvation, call upon christ again, get your salvation back, oops you sin again so your not saved. Personally, i think Christ has a better use of time than having a big eraser and using it in the book of life everytime someone sins.

[AMB]

For those who make or think statements like that was quoted above, please understand that we don't lose our salvation for committing one sin. We lose it for not repenting of our sins.

Say I become a Christian and after awhile of attending my church I find a nice girl in the congregation and we start seeing each other and eventually we start living in fornication. If Christ comes back and finds me living in that sin will I make it to heaven? According to scripture I won't.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up!

As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple!

So what did you just gain by mocking a heart thought response? You want to simplify our God and others view points so that you can mock them. That is something to admire. I am glad you have so much pride in your greek and hermeneutics, you are a better perosn because of it . . . hopefully you'll enjoy teaching, encouraging and aiding others in the pursuit of knowledge, without mocking them. I know I can learn from you, you have knowledge as do I and everybody on here. Thanks for this insightful comment, it made us all better.

Have a great day.

[AMB]

Eliyahuw,

I'm sure that the Lord will be pleased that you bothered to get yourself saved, just in case you slipped and fell back into sin again and the Lord would sweep it under the rug. We all slip one way or another, brother on the spur of the moment or when we are caught off guard, because we are inherently sinners. It's not a case of bothering to get saved, Eliy, it's a case of being convicted by the holy spirit that you are in need of salvation, but then I am sure you know that yourself.

I'll tell ya, i wasn't being snarky with anyone, i was being serious in this. I have pointed out that Christ told us that we can never be taken from him by anyone including ourselves. he said it and if it isn't true then i would want no part of worshipping him because if it weren't true he would be a liar!

But to go on beyond that, No one who is truely christian will go to hell for bouncing a check and forgetting about it and then when he comes again, he hasn't repented of that sin and wow surprise you go to hell. THats just plain rediculous in thinking. SOrry but no it ain't going to happen.

I can however tell you from PERSONAL experience that he doesn't let you go far before either taking you home or bringing you to a point of asking forgiveness for sin that you commit. And his "reminders" aren't that gentle. I live with his reminder every day for my turning away for a season, there isn't a minute that goes by that i don't have physical pain from my actions. But the fact remains is that he was going to remove me from earth or i was going to ask for forgiveness. AT no point would i have lost my salvation.

Basically, when i turned my back on him was the day he took my dad. It wasn't right, fair, justified that he take him from this earth at 56. I pretty much hated him for it, and it didn't get any better when he took my son from this earth. Then i really hated him.

I figured i didnt need him for anything, since i was able to do for myself. You can drop me off in the middle of the wilderness, and i will probably meet you back at base camp before you get back thats how resourceful i am. Sooo

he took my health. I now live with chronic angina pain level 5 which is the worst kind, Congestive Heart failure, and several other ailments. I was 100% healthy up to that point. I had 6 heart attacks as warnings and finally the last one almost killed me.

I know that if I had died, i would be in heaven, but would have been there with no rewards, and getting there by the skin of my teeth.

I don't know if I would totally agree with you. . . if we don't forgive, he won't forgive us right? Unforgivenss is a very crucial, it hardens our hearts, and causes sickness and disease . . . could heart disease and complications, just may be, be correlated to this . . . then it wouldn't be God causing these things, but our choice . . . I am a firm believer that God did not cause any of these things to occur in your life, it was not his plan for you, but you yourself have said you were mad at God for taking your dad . . . which I beleive is the wrong viewpoint, but this is an entirely different discussion.

SO why did he take my health? I don't belive it was to repent for fear of hell, he did it to show me that he can take care of things. That he has the control over everything. He did it to show me that he didn't need my help. He takes care of me, he provides for me, he loves me. You guys make him out to be this fearful threatening being. Sorry to disappoint you folks but he's nothing like that. He's a sheppard. He loves his flock. If one strays away, he doesn't kill it and damn it to hell, he leaves the others in the fold and goes out and seeks that one sheep that wanders away and brings it back tothe fold. IF that sheep doesn't listen, he breaks its leg and he then carries that sheep on his shoulders with him until that sheep heals. When it heals, it will be closer to him as the sheep will bond with him. Right now my sheppard is carrying me on his shoulders. he feeds me, he mends my wounds, he mends my heart, he repairs the damage i did to myself, he keeps me near his heart.

So much here . . . so you think HE took your health? Why would he do that? This is a whole other discuss and has little to do with OSAS. So maybe it should not be brought up in this discussion. Regardless, I am thankful for you dedication to and love for our savior, you are a valuable citizen of the Kingdom, and I know God has great plans for you here and now, that don't include pain and sufferring.

So sorry if i don't believe in your losing salvation ideas. Its not biblical. Its not what christ said, and not what christ has shown. What i do believe is that if a christian doesn't turn back to him, because his sheeph knows him and hear his voice and come running back to him when called, that christian that doesn't turn back is more than likely a person that has a head knowelge of christ, not a heart knowlege of christ. Thats the difference.

If it wasn't biblical, and it was black and white, we wouldn't be discussing it. Both sides have scripture to support their view point. I would just say we all need to be open to being revealed truth. I think some of the most dangerous words in the English language is "I know that." Which really says I am not opening to grow. Reveal truth, challenge my thoughts, I desire to grow, I definately don't have all the answers. Also how would you qualify head knowledge vs. heart? It isn't qualified in scripture . . . or is it . . . hmmmm.

[apothanein kerdos]

For those who make or think statements like that was quoted above, please understand that we don't lose our salvation for committing one sin. We lose it for not repenting of our sins.

Say I become a Christian and after awhile of attending my church I find a nice girl in the congregation and we start seeing each other and eventually we start living in fornication. If Christ comes back and finds me living in that sin will I make it to heaven? According to scripture I won't.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up!

As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple!

So what did you just gain by mocking a heart thought response? You want to simplify our God and others view points so that you can mock them. That is something to admire. I am glad you have so much pride in your greek and hermeneutics, you are a better perosn because of it . . . hopefully you'll enjoy teaching, encouraging and aiding others in the pursuit of knowledge, without mocking them. I know I can learn from you, you have knowledge as do I and everybody on here. Thanks for this insightful comment, it made us all better.

Have a great day.

I wasn't mocking it - I was showing how utterly absurd it is to make it seem as simple as he did. Furthermore, I was pointing out how illogical his statement was, and how it practically condemns all of us to Hell. Let's face it, when you deny eternal security, you leave no way to measure our salvation, on what causes us to lose it and what doesn't. You also never responded to what I posted against you...all you did was thrust a personal comment at me, without addressing the content I brought forth. Hmmmmmm

Just so you can keep track, here are the responses to you from me:

Post Number 882

Not a single one of these were companions of the apostles. Most of the men you quote did not start writing until the middle to the late second century...thus, unless they were well into their 90's or above, they did not know the apostles. In fact, we do not have any writings from those who knew the apostles (except that which is in the New Testament). The closest we can get is to the third generation Christians. Furthermore, many of them showed early signs of heresy or departing from scripture. Keep in mind that at this time there were no uniformed creeds and/or doctrines, thus men would often believe what they wanted to. Lastly, many of these men relied on apocryphal works and not the entirety of the New Testament in order to create their theology - not only were they influenced by this, but during persecutions they had people who would leave the faith and sacrifice to the Roman Emperor. In an attempt to keep these people from coming back, they simply said they were no longer saved. It became an easy way to excommunicate people from the Church. You must look at the history of the theology before commenting on it.

I would also add that Ignatius believed we could never be restored back to Christ once we had "lost" our salvation. What is more interesting, is that when Tertullian writes what you quote in On Redemption he is arguing against people who believe in eternal security. Unfortunately, these writings have been mostly lost - what it does show us is that he was arguing against a sect of Christians that believed in eternal security.

Post 880

The problem with people saying we can lose our salvation is that there is no qualification to exactly how we lose our salvation.

If we verbally renounce Christ, we lose it. Yet, why are the verbals more important than our actions, if anything, the Bible is clear that God looks to our heart (actions) and judges us from this, not from what we have said. If that is our case, our actions can deny Christ, and therefore sin can cause us to lose our salvation. Yet, how big a sin? If I go out and murder people, I have sinned greatly, against man and against God...thus I guess my salvation has been lost. Of course, if I just sit around and I'm lazy and slothful, only working when necessary, is my salvation still lost for such a minimal sin? Going back to murder, what if I just hate someone, which Jesus says is the equivalent to murder. Do I then lose my salvation?

The fact is, people who preach against perseverance of the saints generally have not studied the idea of sanctification...or thought through the ramifications of their own belief.

As a side note, next time before "getting onto" me, look at the entire picture. The reason I brought up my training in the scriptures is because Cardpractor said that anyone who is against his position obviously hasn't read/doesn't understand the scriptures. The fact is, and take this as you will, I'm better equipped to understand the scriptures than he is, so it's a little absurd for him to advocate the opposite. That's not to say I have the absolute, infallible interpretation that no one can question, or that I can't be wrong - it merely means that when it comes down to it, I have more tools to work with.

[apothanein kerdos]

You can see here the work that is required of us as Christians. These are the works of working out our salvation and proving of our faith.

Ah, okay. So what you're saying is that though we can think in a Christian way, if we commit an act of sin, we're going to hell. Essentially now, you're disagreeing with Christ. He stated that all physical acts of sin began inside the mind. Thus, either Christ is wrong and you're right, or He's right and you're wrong. Or, an even worse option, you're wrong and even sinful thoughts can send us to hell. In which case, no one is in Heaven. Dang...

[Eliyahuw]

I am deleting all those messed up quotes, makes reading harder .

AMB, please don't think I am mocking you, i am not. I am just bringing up points of logic and reason. Logic and reason are valid tools for discerning what the scriptures say.

First and foremost, the Doctrine of Christ is the number one most important Doctrine in the bible. Do you not agree??

Again, I am not great at being politically correct, or diplomatic. I am pretty much too the point, and it does not reflect on you personally or even on your beliefs per se only that I am pointing out what I see, and what i am comparing to, and testing against. It comes across blunt i know.

I am sorry you are reading into my post what I did not write . . . sin does not cause us to lose our salvation, we all sin and fall short, having a stronghold in your life that you are growing through does not cause you to lose you salvation.

Edited February 12, 2007 by Eliyahuw

[AMB]

For those who make or think statements like that was quoted above, please understand that we don't lose our salvation for committing one sin. We lose it for not repenting of our sins.

Say I become a Christian and after awhile of attending my church I find a nice girl in the congregation and we start seeing each other and eventually we start living in fornication. If Christ comes back and finds me living in that sin will I make it to heaven? According to scripture I won't.

Ah, I get it, it's so simple! So that means if I lie about something, like, someone asks how I'm doing and I say "fine" when I'm not doing fine, and all of a sudden Jesus comes back, I'll go to hell because I haven't repented! It all makes so much sense! Thank you for clearing it all up!

As for not knowing scripture...I really need to get my money back for studying Greek and hermeneutics. What a waste of money when you showed it was so simple!

So what did you just gain by mocking a heart thought response? You want to simplify our God and others view points so that you can mock them. That is something to admire. I am glad you have so much pride in your greek and hermeneutics, you are a better perosn because of it . . . hopefully you'll enjoy teaching, encouraging and aiding others in the pursuit of knowledge, without mocking them. I know I can learn from you, you have knowledge as do I and everybody on here. Thanks for this insightful comment, it made us all better.

Have a great day.

I wasn't mocking it - I was showing how utterly absurd it is to make it seem as simple as he did. Furthermore, I was pointing out how illogical his statement was, and how it practically condemns all of us to Hell. Let's face it, when you deny eternal security, you leave no way to measure our salvation, on what causes us to lose it and what doesn't. You also never responded to what I posted against you...all you did was thrust a personal comment at me, without addressing the content I brought forth. Hmmmmmm

Just so you can keep track, here are the responses to you from me:

Post Number 882

Not a single one of these were companions of the apostles. Most of the men you quote did not start writing until the middle to the late second century...thus, unless they were well into their 90's or above, they did not know the apostles. In fact, we do not have any writings from those who knew the apostles (except that which is in the New Testament). The closest we can get is to the third generation Christians. Furthermore, many of them showed early signs of heresy or departing from scripture. Keep in mind that at this time there were no uniformed creeds and/or doctrines, thus men would often believe what they wanted to. Lastly, many of these men relied on apocryphal works and not the entirety of the New Testament in order to create their theology - not only were they influenced by this, but during persecutions they had people who would leave the faith and sacrifice to the Roman Emperor. In an attempt to keep these people from coming back, they simply said they were no longer saved. It became an easy way to excommunicate people from the Church. You must look at the history of the theology before commenting on it.

I would also add that Ignatius believed we could never be restored back to Christ once we had "lost" our salvation. What is more interesting, is that when Tertullian writes what you quote in On Redemption he is arguing against people who believe in eternal security. Unfortunately, these writings have been mostly lost - what it does show us is that he was arguing against a sect of Christians that believed in eternal security.

Post 880

The problem with people saying we can lose our salvation is that there is no qualification to exactly how we lose our salvation.

If we verbally renounce Christ, we lose it. Yet, why are the verbals more important than our actions, if anything, the Bible is clear that God looks to our heart (actions) and judges us from this, not from what we have said. If that is our case, our actions can deny Christ, and therefore sin can cause us to lose our salvation. Yet, how big a sin? If I go out and murder people, I have sinned greatly, against man and against God...thus I guess my salvation has been lost. Of course, if I just sit around and I'm lazy and slothful, only working when necessary, is my salvation still lost for such a minimal sin? Going back to murder, what if I just hate someone, which Jesus says is the equivalent to murder. Do I then lose my salvation?

The fact is, people who preach against perseverance of the saints generally have not studied the idea of sanctification...or thought through the ramifications of their own belief.

As a side note, next time before "getting onto" me, look at the entire picture. The reason I brought up my training in the scriptures is because Cardpractor said that anyone who is against his position obviously hasn't read/doesn't understand the scriptures. The fact is, and take this as you will, I'm better equipped to understand the scriptures than he is, so it's a little absurd for him to advocate the opposite. That's not to say I have the absolute, infallible interpretation that no one can question, or that I can't be wrong - it merely means that when it comes down to it, I have more tools to work with.

My apologies on replying to your other quotes, not something I did on purpose. I had posted those other references just out of curiosity, which just shows us all that this discussion goes far beyond us, and was actually glad to see you had some of the original writings. That type of information is very valuable. Thank you very much.

As far as, how and when we lose our salvation that is a different topic. I don't think it is the actual sin that causes us to lose our salvation, but it turning away from Christ and His truth. For whatever the reason, some just think that they can say a pray and they are saved . . . they enter the born again club and never really enter into a realionship. They are deceived and most likely just had a head conversion, which is likely to be a very large part of the church right now. There is another group that get born again and then dive into the scripture to gain the correct theology and doctrine . . . they are very versed in the scripture, but still don't have a relationship with Him . . . just as the religious people of Jesus' time. They thought eternity was in the scriptures, but they refused to have a relationship with Him. (John 5) I beleive this is a picture of many in the church now, many either just join the born again club, others desire to just get their theology or doctrine correct . . . but again eternity is to know God (John 17). . . not just His scripture. It is a personal relationship that is as intimate as the one with your spouse.

What is eternity? Jesus said it is to KNOW God. Know here indicates very intimate relationship with Him. This is Jesus speaking . . . you can know all the scripture you want, and even speak greek and hebrew, and still not know God, but it is the relationship with Christ that brings eternal salvation.

Again, I don't beleive it is the "sin" that causes you to walk away from God, but a condition of the heart, but know where does it say I cannot walk away form him by choice . . . why somebody would, I don't know, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Anyways thank you for making me better. Be blessed.