What is left to happen before the tribulation?

[terter]

Since there are many different perspectives about the order - not really concerned about that but just the Biblical scriptures for the things that will happen prior to the last 3.5 yrs of the tribution? Thanks.

[Leonard]

First you'll have to show me ANYWHERE in the Bible that talks about 'The Great Tribulation.'

The concept is a fiction. A fraud perpetrated against the Body of Christ.

[Leonard]

CJ: You need to read more carefully. None of these quotes refer to THE Great Tribulation, simply to 'great tribulation.' The difference being that so-called 'prophecy teachers' seized on the phrase, and "added to" the Word of God, the little 'definite article' "the" and changed the WHOLE MEANING, so they could sell millions of dollars worth of silly books to gullible Christians. The Greek phrase you cite, simply means 'gobs of trouble' and has NOTHING to do with a PARTICULAR space of time. That concept was INVENTED out of whole cloth. Jesus said "In this world you shall have tribulation" or 'trouble', but He never said "...you shall have The Gobs of Trouble....."

"The Great Tribulation" as taught by so many today, cannot be found in the Scripture........

[Prodigalson123]

G2347

θλίψις

thlipsis

thlip'-sis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Mat 24:21 For1063 then5119 shall be2071 great3173 tribulation,2347 such as3634 was1096 not3756 since575 the beginning746 of the world2889 to2193 this time,3568 no,3761 nor ever3364 shall be.1096

Mat 24:22 And2532 except1508 those1565 days2250 should be shortened,2856 there should no3756 flesh4561 be saved:4982, 302 but1161 for the elect's sake1223, 3588, 1588 those1565 days2250 shall be shortened.2856

so....explain to me the context that no flesh be saved, the description such as was not since the beginning, nor shall ever be? Be exogetic, not isogetic. Don't twist things to say what your theology says. I don't hang my hat on the issue, because it isn't one worthy of division, the Lord will do what He wants regardless of who makes the better arguments, but to claim that there is deception going on shows that you aren't looking at it objectively. The issue was present long before any "books" were written. This has been an issue in the church since the 1st century. Thus the reason why Paul wrote 1st Thessalonians, the entire reason for the 4th chapter was to explain to the church at Thessalonica what happens to their loved ones when they die. So this question has been around alot longer then Lahaye Ministries.

[gypc]

I think maybe the question should be......"What has to happen before the Lord comes back?"

That is the question that was asked in Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Also Paul gives an account of what must take place before he comes in 2 Thes 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The first thing Jesus tells the diciples in Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is.........."4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."

There is and will be great deception and we are commanded to take heed so were not decieved.

[EricH]

CJ: You need to read more carefully. None of these quotes refer to THE Great Tribulation, simply to 'great tribulation.' The difference being that so-called 'prophecy teachers' seized on the phrase, and "added to" the Word of God, the little 'definite article' "the" and changed the WHOLE MEANING, so they could sell millions of dollars worth of silly books to gullible Christians. The Greek phrase you cite, simply means 'gobs of trouble' and has NOTHING to do with a PARTICULAR space of time. That concept was INVENTED out of whole cloth. Jesus said "In this world you shall have tribulation" or 'trouble', but He never said "...you shall have The Gobs of Trouble....."

"The Great Tribulation" as taught by so many today, cannot be found in the Scripture........

The absense of the definite article really does not make your case. Especially since Jesus described it as a unique time by the use of the modifying phrase:

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Clearly in Jesus' mind, this period of tribulation is differentiated from any other time in history. Thus we are safe to assume it is unique. I also find it troubling that you seem to feel you have insight into the motivation of authors who wrote these books. Attacking the motives of others (especially when you have no way of knowing for sure what they are) really is a fallacious way of arguing. Is it possible that rather than greed being the motivator, they simply have a view different than yours, about which they feel just as strongly, so they wrote about it? Just wondering

[Smalcald]

I think that Christ also pointed out that this was a specific time period, not a general time for all of Christian history. He said to watch for these signs, as you watch the blooming of a tree, when you see the blooming you know the time is near. This would indicate a time, something for us to watch for.

[Leonard]

G2347

θλίψις

thlipsis

thlip'-sis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Mat 24:21 For1063 then5119 shall be2071 great3173 tribulation,2347 such as3634 was1096 not3756 since575 the beginning746 of the world2889 to2193 this time,3568 no,3761 nor ever3364 shall be.1096

Mat 24:22 And2532 except1508 those1565 days2250 should be shortened,2856 there should no3756 flesh4561 be saved:4982, 302 but1161 for the elect's sake1223, 3588, 1588 those1565 days2250 shall be shortened.2856

so....explain to me the context that no flesh be saved, the description such as was not since the beginning, nor shall ever be? Be exogetic, not isogetic. Don't twist things to say what your theology says. I don't hang my hat on the issue, because it isn't one worthy of division, the Lord will do what He wants regardless of who makes the better arguments, but to claim that there is deception going on shows that you aren't looking at it objectively. The issue was present long before any "books" were written. This has been an issue in the church since the 1st century. Thus the reason why Paul wrote 1st Thessalonians, the entire reason for the 4th chapter was to explain to the church at Thessalonica what happens to their loved ones when they die. So this question has been around alot longer then Lahaye Ministries.

Search all those references as much as you like. You WILL NOT find the definite article "THE" anywhere associated with the phrase 'great tribulation.' Of course there will be trouble. There has ever been. But that says NOTHING about any 'The Great Tribulation' as our ever prospering 'end times teachers' speak of it today.

And going to Matt. 24 is of no avail to you at all; THAT was clearly fulfilled when "Jerusalem was compassed about with armies....." in A.D. 67. This whole "Great Tribulation/Rapture" interpretation was only FORCED upon these Scriptures beginning with Darby in the early to mid 1800's. Prior to that there is no record the Church EVER interpreted these passages this way. Do you seriously believe THE WHOLE CHURCH had it wrong for 1800 years until the Great Darby came on the scene to rescue us from our adumbral gruntings? That strikes me as a singularly silly view.

By the way, I have 'twisted' nothing. I have merely shown that to build their really rather shabby house of cards, all these modern 'prophecy teachers' have had to 'add to' the Word of God, the definite article "the" to make their point sound better. So it seems to me you've put the isogetical shoe on the wrong foot; after all isn't isogesis the 'reading into the text, what isn't actually there'?

[EricH]

Search all those references as much as you like. You WILL NOT find the definite article "THE" anywhere associated with the phrase 'great tribulation.' Of course there will be trouble. There has ever been.

So is this the method you consistently apply to determine if God considers something unique? I may be wrong, but I don't think there is a place in scripture that adds a definite artice to the phrase "virgin birth". Yet none of us here would argue that it is not unique. We know it is unique because of other statements made in scripture. The use of the definite article is one way of determining uniqueness, but not the only way. Jesus indicated it would be unique compared to other times of tribulation in history, and included the label "great" Himself.

But that says NOTHING about any 'The Great Tribulation' as our ever prospering 'end times teachers' speak of it today.

Brother, I also wish you would cease personal attacks on teachers that disagree with you, and stick to discussing the text itself. Your logic here is that because people have made money off books that support the position with which you disagree, it is wrong. Thus we are lead to belive that for a position to be true, no one can make money off of teaching it. Doing this adds nothing to the discussion, and does not reflect a love for those with whom one disagrees.

And going to Matt. 24 is of no avail to you at all; THAT was clearly fulfilled when "Jerusalem was compassed about with armies....." in A.D. 67. This whole "Great Tribulation/Rapture" interpretation was only FORCED upon these Scriptures beginning with Darby in the early to mid 1800's. Prior to that there is no record the Church EVER interpreted these passages this way. Do you seriously believe THE WHOLE CHURCH had it wrong for 1800 years until the Great Darby came on the scene to rescue us from our adumbral gruntings? That strikes me as a singularly silly view.

This old nugget that if something new it is wrong is simply a logical fallacy. The concept of both progressive revelation, and progressive understanding of that revelation is very biblical. I happen to agree with you that Matthew 24 is a description of a time of persecution and tribulation that begins with the fall of Jerusalem and extends until Christs return. This passage does not address a specific 7 year period. It addresses an atmosphere of extended tribulation that will continue to increase in scope and intensity until Jesus returns. The concept of a special period of 7 years that is directed at Israel, is specified in other places of scripture. Matthew 24 is the broad brush that sets the boundaries for the entire period from AD 70 until Jesus' return. But for any doctrine to be truly Biblical, it must take into account every passage that speaks to that doctrine.

By the way, I have 'twisted' nothing. I have merely shown that to build their really rather shabby house of cards, all these modern 'prophecy teachers' have had to 'add to' the Word of God, the definite article "the" to make their point sound better. So it seems to me you've put the isogetical shoe on the wrong foot; after all isn't isogesis the 'reading into the text, what isn't actually there'?

And it seems to me you are guilty of the same type of offence by placing undue emphasis on the fact that the definite article does not exist, while ignoring the contextual indicators that Jesus did view this as a unique time. There are many doctrines to which theologians have appended the definite article, where it does not occur in scripture itself. Even an undestanding of Matthew 24 that does not see it as addressing a specific 7 year period does not mean there is not one. All passages must be taken into account.

[Smalcald]

Historically

There has always been a concept of a tribulation before the Return of Christ, there still is today in the Roman and Eastern Churches .

I think the "rapture" idea is relatively new.