Who Is Babylon?? according to Jeremiah 50-51

[givennewname]

Actually, I never addressed the Messianic references at all. There is no doubt that by the time this was written, Israel was beginning to look for a deliverer from God. What's open to question is how developed the idea of the Messiah was at the time Jeremiah was writing. Be that as it may, the answer to the OP is right there in Jeremiah 50:1 - "The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:"

Jeremiah himself tells us who he is talking about. Trying to find a hidden meaning where none exists is an exercise in futility.

I dunno how you can say this statement:There is no doubt that by the time this was written, Israel was beginning to look for a deliverer from God. What's open to question is how developed the idea of the Messiah was at the time Jeremiah was writing. . The Jews were introduced to the messiah concept all through the five book of Moses starting from this first messianic prophecy: Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The Lord himself said that Moses spoke of him, so how can you maintain that the Jews were just begining to look for a deliverer from God?

Trying to find a hidden meaning where none exists is an exercise in futility

I can't believe you said that............

I did say it and i stand by it. Remember the Golden Rule of interpetation - "When the plain sense makes the best sense, seek no other sense, but take every word at its primary literal meaning, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise."

I also said that the doctrine of the Messiah hadn't been fully developed, meaning their expectations of the Messiah, how the Messiah would come, so on and so forth. Sorry for the confusion.

That is what we are doing.. We are reading the Bible in a very literal sense, but in a very careful fashion. The concept of double or multiple fulfillment of a prophecy is well accepted. In my given example, a given prophecy may have an immediate fulfillment, a fulfillment in the first coming and a fulfillment in second coming. One clear example is the prophecy of the abomination of desolation as prophesied by Daniel. There were 3 known fulfillment of that prophecy, first by antiochus Epiphenes, second defilement of the Temple by Titus and the Lord Jesus himself says there will be a third fulfillment by the Antichrist.

[givennewname]

I have a new thread here for us. please give your strong opinions and beliefs. I have been reading Jeremiah 50-51 and does anyone think this could pertain to the United States??

Do you know that back in 1988 Saddam Huissein believed he was Nebuchadnezzar for our day brought back with a message??

How many of you remember his claims back then? I sure do! Where is America in this picture?

God bless, let's stay peaceful....Girl

By no stretch of the imagination. Jeremiah 50:1 says, "The word that the Lord spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:..."(emphasis added). Jeremiah prophesied between 627 and 586 BC and his ministry was to Judah. There is no rational basis to suppose that Jeremiah was thinking about the United States. His word from God was for the people of his time; to assume otherwise is to abuse the text.

Rufus

I went over this in a different thread regarding Jeremiah 30 and 31 but it seems that with your posting here the record again needs to be set straight.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 is replete with Hebrew Messianic Idioms referencing the fact that the oracle of Babylon is a reference to the time just before the Coming of Messiah to set up the Millennial Kingdom.

50: 2 -- "Declare ye among the nations" -- is a special Hebrew Messianic idiom...followed by a second one right after that...

50:2 -- "and publish" --

50:2 ---"set up a standard" --

These 3 idioms abbreviated as they are refer to one Messianic ordinance - the requirement that the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel must meet and escort the Messiah through the Messianic gate into Jerusalem.

In order to accomplish this requirement, the Jews set up an elaborate signaling/communications system using "flagmen" set on the top of the hills surrounding Israel. These flagmen had special flags or banners (KJV - "standard") - There was a special flag or banner or "standard" that was reserved for the Messiah. When it was waved by a flag man, it meant, the Messiah had been spotted approaching Israel. The flagmen on adjacent hill tops would see the Messiah's banner being waved and they in turn would wave their own Messiah flag or banner to signal to the next hilltop post further down the chain that the Messiah was coming. This created a chain reaction across the entire flagpost network across Israel, so that the Tribal elders could be notified in advance and make haste for Jerusalem in order to greet and escort the Messiah into Jerusalem and thus fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Now, the Prophets, in order to conserve on space and ink, abbreviated this concept into 'idioms" and often times further abbreviated the idioms... such as -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" - or in English = "The Banner of the Messiah" abbreviated to "the banner" or "waving of the banner" or in the KJV "Publish" as a totally abbreviated idiomatic reference to the above flag signalling system. Also, as part of that alert system. A Messianic shout would be given or "Delcared" --

So that in verse 2 we 3 distinct Messianic idioms indicating that the entire oracle is set in the time frame of the coming of the Messiah and the fact that we have triple repetition is indicative of the absoluteness of the time frame. In other words, God is making it crystal clear that what follows in the description will take place in the time frame of the coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic, Millennial Kingdom.

So right off the bat in Verse 2, after the announcment that chapter 50 was a prophecy concerning Babylon we have the triple Messianic idiom references -- indicating that what is to follow is describing events that will occur at the time of the Coming of Messiah to establish the Messianic Kingdom.

In verse 4 and again in verse 20, the same Hebrew Messianic idiom is repeated - "In those days and in that time"

In chapter 51: verse 12 " Set up the standard" - the abbreviation for "gevlai shel Meshiach" the specific Messianic idiom.

In Chapter 51: verse 27, "Set up the standtard" -- again the same abbreviated Hebrew Messianic idiom.

And yet one more Messianic idiom - in verse 52 -- "Behold the days come" -- the days of the Coming of Messiah.

Furthermore -- Isaiah also does that same thing with his oracle against Babylon...

Isaiah 13 - verse 2 = "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain" -- here again the Hebrew Messianic idiom - "gevlais shel Meshiach." and then he further states to confirm this Messianic idiom - "exalt the voice unto them".... "shake the hand" [greeting the Messiah] ..."that they may go into the "gates of the nobles" - a reference to the Tribal elders greeting the Messiah and escorting him through the gates into Jerusalem.

Verse 6 -- "For the Day of the Lord is near" -- another Messianic idiom without abbreviation... and note that day is "near" when Babylon is judged by a fiery judgment.

Verse 8 ... "as a woman in travail" -- again another Messianic reference - see also Jesus' Olivet Discourse on the same idiom.

Verse 9 "Bhold, the Day of the Lord" - again same Messianic reference.

Both Isaiah and Jeremiah speak of a future Babylon, a super-power nation with the character traits of ancient Babylon which shall be destroyed in a special Divine judgment just before the coming of Messiah.

Both prophets are writing about the same Babylon as found in Revelation 17 and 18. All of these prophecies speak to a single, solitary nation of the end-times before the Messianic Kingdom is established.

It should be stated that neither prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. Persia's conquest of Babylon occured without a shot being fired. The city was not destroyed at all, and was not burned with fire in one day, neither were her cities (plural) destroyed by fire and neither did Babylon or Babylonia sink forever beneath the ocean waves nor did the sea come up over her... Jeremiah 51: 42, 55, 64. Neither did she become like Sodom and Gomorrah, never to be inhabited again nor even found.

No scholar in their right mind, claims to think that Jeremiah and Isaiah's predictions were fulfilled according to the writtend descriptions of Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Two of the biggest problems in understanding the Old Testament prophets are the historical distance and the fact that the prophets wrote/spoke a large part of their work poetically. Because the vast majority of us are inexperienced or unpracticed in exegeting the prophets, this can lead to all kinds of wild theories and speculation that have no basis in fact.

Any interpretation of what the prophets were saying has to be grounded in an understanding of the Mosaic covenant, specifically the passages in Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 25-30, where Moses records the blessings, curses and penalties for keeping and breaking the covenant. The prophets' job was to remind Israel of who they were and who they belonged to; it was not to hide esoteric clues about the end of the world that were not to be understood until thousands of years later.

It is human nature to want to be in the know.However, God doesn't operate that way. He doesn't hide things in the text for thousands of years and then suddenly reveal them to you and me. None of the Bible was written personally to anyone in our day. That's not to say we can't find direction and meaning in the scripture. But, because we, in our time, want to see something new and exciting and fresh and different, because we want so desperately to be taken seriously as God's children, the line between the inspired writers and the illumined readers gets blurred and we wind up spending a disproportionate amount of time parsing out dubious meanings from obscure passages that have nothing to do with what we want them to say. We want this answer from this passage now. I'm afraid that what passes for scholarship and prophetic utterance, especially in charismatic circles, is simply nothing more than a grand exercise in self-deception. The most extreme example that I can think of is the post that was here some months ago about how the Bible predicted the events of 9/11/2001.

To Rufus,

You didn't bother to address the numerous Messianic idioms which these prophets used - Isaiah and Jeremiah indicating that the particular passages in question were intended for a far future time - when the conquering Messiah would come.

Just what does "Day of the Lord" refer to if not the time of the coming of Messiah??????????

Just what does the term "Banner of the Messiah" -- "gevlai shel Meschiach" and its associated abbreviations refer to if not to the time of the coming of Messiah???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

There are 3 separate abbreviated variations of that idiom in Jeremiah 50:2 which kicks off The Oracle of Babylon's future judgment - the description of which - was never ever fulfilled - not even close ... in 539 B.C. by Cyrus.

Even Rabbinical sources at the time of Ezra point out that Jeremiah and Isaiah's prophecies, as well as Daniel's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled and were intended for the time of the Day of the Lord - a particularly Messianic Metaphor/idiom.

Rufus - you have no clue about properly using Biblical Hermeneutics, as evidenced by your statements denying these Hebrew idioms.

As for Apocalyptic literature being "poetic" - the main function of Hebrew poetry was repetition to drive home a point, not simply to be artistic. Hebrew poetry was not about phonetic rhyme of sounds.

Your comments indicate a narrow, very biased interpretation based upon erroneous presuppositions which are contradicted by the use of the Messianic idioms.

Actually, I never addressed the Messianic references at all. There is no doubt that by the time this was written, Israel was beginning to look for a deliverer from God. What's open to question is how developed the idea of the Messiah was at the time Jeremiah was writing. Be that as it may, the answer to the OP is right there in Jeremiah 50:1 - "The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah:"

Jeremiah himself tells us who he is talking about. Trying to find a hidden meaning where none exists is an exercise in futility.

Oh dear brother Rufus,

how can you say such things// It is well known that when the OT prophets spoke, their prophecies have double or triple fulfillment and may be directed to others apart from the person whom the prophet is directing the prophecy. The prophet has a telescopic view of events, sometimes events of the first coming is superimposed on events of the second coming. Its like 3 hills superimposed on each other, the prophet views one event instead of three.

Let me just give one example although there are many in the OT. the Lord Jesus was handed the scroll of Isaiah, he quoted half the verse and said that today the scripture is fulfilled. Why did the Lord Jesus not quote the verse fully? He stopped in the Middle of Isaiah 61:2 saying he has fulfilled it in his coming? the answer is from the middle of verse 2 onwards, The day of the Lord's vengeance refer to his second coming, hence have not been fulfilled..

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, To-day hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the words of grace which proceeded out of his mouth: and they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.

Another example in Zechariah's prophecy:

Zec 9:8 And I will encamp about my house against the army, that none pass through or return; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Verse 8 refers to a burden of damascus at the end time, verse 9 suddenly goes back to the first coming of the Lord and was fulfilled, verse 10 swings back to the end time millennial kingdom again.. how do we know verse 10 refer to the end time? it says that his dominion is from sea to sea.. The lord had never been given a dominion that stretches from sea to sea ...yet until his millennial kingdom comes.

Another example in Isaiah:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou abhorrest shall be forsaken.

Double fulfillement in the sense that the sign unto Ahaz is that one of the women in his harem will concieve an child called Immanuel and before he is weans, the enemies coming against Ahaz will be defeated.. the second fulfillment is in our Lord..

Another eg in Ezekiel:

This prophecy is directed against the king of Tyre but God was also speaking to the power behind the King of Tyre who is Satan. The king of Tyre as a human cannot fit into the prophecy but yet the prophecy is directed to him..

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.

Eze 28:14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.

Eze 28:16 By the abundance of thy traffic they filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore have I cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I have destroyed thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17 Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Eze 28:18 By the multitude of thine iniquities, in the unrighteousness of thy traffic, thou hast profaned thy sanctuaries; therefore have I brought forth a fire from the midst of thee; it hath devoured thee, and I have turned thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.

The concept of sensus plenior or fuller meaning is valid but one has to define and identify the contextual controls before asserting any such interpretation. Much of what I see and hear taught as "fuller meaning" is really nothing more than magical thinking. That's the way children think - "It's true because I want it to be."

When the Bible says,"The word that the LORD spoke concerning Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans, by the prophet Jeremiah" there is no doubt as to whom or what the rest of the passage refers to. Consequently, I have to wonder what the motivation is when someone desiring to be considered wise in the ways of prophecy presumes to say that "really" means Jeremiah was speaking about New York City, apropos of nothing whatsoever in the text. Christian, please.

It is alarming to me that so many intelligent, well-educated people are willing to accept that sort of wishful thinking merely on the speaker's say-so and are unwilling to challenge the thought process behind it. You'll notice, for example, that much of the discussion of the Old Testament prophets gets forced through the filter of Christian eschatology without any mention of the primary literal meaning of the passage in question. That leads to circular reasoning, because the discussion of the passage is not anchored to anything. The thinking goes like this - "Since we're discussing eschatology and the end times, I want to mention (insert favorite verse here). That means that such and such is going to happen at this point in the end times therefore (insert favorite verse here) must be a reference to the end times." Never mind the fact that an objective reading of (insert favorite verse here) reveals that the passage under consideration is a recipe for lamb - the speaker wants it to fit the discussion so the passage is forced to fit, regardless of the historical and literary context. The silliest example of that is the preacher who taught that it was a sin for women to wear their hair in a bun because the Bible says "topknot go down" (Let he who is on the housetop not go down - Mark 13:15).

Forcing a passage to say something it was never meant to say is poor exegesis, which leads to faulty interpretation, which leads to false doctrine. Think of it this way - Jesus fulfilled every Messianic prophecy given. What He didn't fulfill was the Jews' expectations of how those prophecies would be manifested. The same dynamic is at play when it comes to Christian eschatology and there are going to be some rude surprises when the Lord finally does come back to claim His own.

Dear Brother,

I don't think you have been reading scriptures at all. Look at the context of the scriptures, and see if it fits fulfillment in the time period that you are considering...

In the instance of Jer 30, Jer50 and Jer 51 the prophecies stated in these chapter have not been fulfilled or they are only partly fulfilled. Either these prophets are lying or they are false prophet which is not possible because Jesus quoted from them..

You still have not stated how to overcome the problems stated mainly that Babylon was not burnt by fire and razed to the ground in the persian invasion and it certainly did not sink to the seafloor..

If you still insist that the prophecies of Isaiah, jeremaih and other prophets applied only to their time, then they are false prophets..because the deliverance of the Jews and dwelling safely in their land had not happened and if something the prophe said did not fully occur as predicted, they are to be branded false prophets..

[givennewname]

and thus if Iraq's Babylon was the future Babylon then it couldn't also fulfill God's promises to Abraham and the Messianic Kingdom which included Babylon and much of present day Iraq. That's just one of 60 reasons why Iraq and ancient Babylon cannot be the Babylon of Revelation 17/18.

i now that the Lord God promised Abraham the lands lying btween the river Euphrates to the river in Egypt.. Babylon may not be in the covenant as it is not specifically mentioned... The Euphrates is a big and long river.. covers much.. The Tribes that will lose the land specifically mentioned and the Chaldeans are not mentioned.............

What are the other 50 reasons??

Gen 15:18 In that day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Gen 15:19 the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,

Gen 15:20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,

Gen 15:21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite

Edited August 6, 2008 by givennewname