No rapture or left behind

[Smalcald]

Well I hope for a rapture, I just wish there were scriptural support for a rapture prior to the final return of Christ. I don't see it, but I am not against it!

[JLW001]

In reading the Word, I have seen one very key aspect of this doctrine. If one could find "when", in the sequence of events, the first resurrection occurs, then one would know exactly the timing of the "rapture" because Paul clearly writes in Thessolonians that the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are left alive will be gathered to Jesus in the clouds with them. So, if you can determine when the first resurrection takes place then you can definitely know the timing of our rapture.

I will leave it up to you to find the verses, but the Bible is very plain in speaking about when the first resurrection occurs and who will be included in it.

[Jesus Admirer]

In reading the Word, I have seen one very key aspect of this doctrine. If one could find "when", in the sequence of events, the first resurrection occurs, then one would know exactly the timing of the "rapture" because Paul clearly writes in Thessolonians that the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are left alive will be gathered to Jesus in the clouds with them. So, if you can determine when the first resurrection takes place then you can definitely know the timing of our rapture.

I will leave it up to you to find the verses, but the Bible is very plain in speaking about when the first resurrection occurs and who will be included in it.

I totally agree that the timing of the resurrection is the key to knowing the timing of the rapture. Consider what Jesus said in John 6:39,40, that he would raise them up the last day. (Not 7 years before the last day.) Jesus is definately referring to the resurrection, which will happen the last day. See John 6:39,40 below.

John 6:39

[Jesus Admirer]

I want to share an article I wrote on my wbsite titled: I Don't Believe In A Pretribulation Rapture! I Believe In A PreWrath Rature! I wrote the article as Part One and Part Two, because it wouldn't fit all on one page.

Part One

http://thelordsplace.bravehost.com/PreWrath.html

Hi Jesus Admirer,

I'll begin with your extrapolation of Rev. 20:4-6, however, I will only refer to part one of the post on your website .

This first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 follows the tribulaton, because it includes Christians who had to have went through the tribulation. The rapture can

Edited June 18, 2007 by Jesus Admirer

[Jesus Admirer]

Continuing with Christopher John,

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I want to continue challenging scripture, which pretribers give to support the pretribulation rapture theory. You will notice in Revelation 3:10 above, that it says I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation. The hour of temptation is referred as meaning the Great Tribulation which will occur at end times. Pretribers quote this verse as meaning that Jesus Christ will keep them out of the Great Tribulation through a pretribulation rapture.

The key words are "keep & from". What did the Lord mean when He said "keep thee from the hour of temptation.

Keep from the strongs greek dictionary means:

05083:

5083 τηρεω tereo tay-reh'-o

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to <2334>); ; v

AV-keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1, hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

1a) to guard

1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

1c) to observe

1d) to reserve: to undergo something

Now we can see from the greek meaning keep, that it means to guard or keep in the state one is in, which means the Lord will guard the spirituality of the Christian, and perhaps preserve the spiritual state of that Christian. (Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith.) I will comment more below. But first the Greek meaning of the word "from"

01537:

1537 εκ ek ek or εξ ex ex

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; ; prep

AV-of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98; 921

1) out of, from, by, away from

from

Edited June 18, 2007 by Jesus Admirer

[methinkshe]

I can honestly say that I just don't know whether the rapture is pre or post Trib. I have read arguments on all sides and still don't know. So what I would like to ask is: does it matter that I'm not sure what to believe, that I keep an open mind on the subject? How could it affect me if I were to believe one way or the other or just stay undecided?

Ruth

[Smalcald]

Any discussion of the Return of Christ must deal with and I think start with what Christ Himself said in Matthew.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,

[methinkshe]

"22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect

[Smalcald]

"22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect

[Jesus Admirer]

There will be a time at the end of the tribulation, when the Lord will be pouring out His own personal wrath and indignation, and the antichrist will most likely be destroyed in the process, which is actually what I believe Isaiah 26:20,21 are referring to. Therefore 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which pretribers also refer to claiming the Lord has not appointed them unto wrath really is referring to the same indignation or wrath Isaiah 26:20,21 does.

Most likely be destroyed????... have you actually read anything other than 1Thessalonians and Isaiah 26: 20,21?... I'll hold off on the sarcasm. Again there's that incorrect attachment to Isaiah 26:20,21 so you can toss that out the window as far as referencing it for use towards rapture doctrine, boy it's gonna take a while for you to get over this one because you have bet basically your whole theory on Isaiah 26: 20,21, and it doesn't mean what you think it does. Hey...I been there too JA on a few occasions, don't get me worng your 50% right, it does speak of the period of wrath but has nothing to do with Rapture.

The tribulation is a time of the devil's wrath. (Not the Lord's) The Lord pours out his toward the end. 2 Peter 3:10 makes that very clear. The Thief in the night, which even most pretribers acquaint with the rapture is mentioned in 2. Peter 3:10, which Peter associates with the Day Of The Lord, where the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. (Rapture and the Lord's wrath happening around the same time.) Peter understood that, but pretribers don't.

I fail to see where you make that connection. 2Peter 3:10-12 describes yet again the "Day of Jehovah", the tribulation period and that it comes upon the unbeliever like a thief...they are caught unaware and suddenly it's too late they now have to endure the Tribulation period...what's the biggy?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Now here's Isaiah 26:20,21 which supports the prewrath theory. But let's both agree that we're talkin theories, and I don't call any of my brothers and sisters heritics. (Not even pretribers.) Why? Because I believe most pretribers have been deceived into believing what they believe, and most couldn't support their belief if they tried. Their leaders have tried, and have failed miserably in my opinion, but I don't call them heritics. (I call them mistaken) See Isaiah 26:20,21 below.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers(rapture), and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

JA, I'll finish off with a few more scriptural quotes concerning the "Faithful Remnant of Israel" and I'll be on my way,to be perfectly honest I don't think you ever submitted your "article" for a peer review and ultimately you have taken a position of pride concerning it but in all honesty it lacks truth, not that you have intentionally went out of your way to mislead anyone but your argument demonstrates what happens when someone is mislead or did not study certain portions of scripture correctly (i.e.; Isaiah 26: 20,21) so basically you are unknowingly pushing a valid theory like pre-wrath with the worng scipture and with the wrong attitude....your trying to prove pre-wrath correct by bashing pre-trib...It just doesn't work that way.

So as I stated above the Faithful Remnant scriptural support.

Zephania 3:8-13

Proof of the Remnant Isaiah 10: 20-23 This is a key Prophecy which also demonstrates that the people of Israel will lean on the Antichrist before they turn to God.

The Protection of the Remnant Isaiah 41: 8-16 and ****************************Isaiah 26: 20-21***********************************

The provisions of the Remnant during the Tribulation period just like God provided in Exodus Isaiah 41:17-20

Don't take it personally, I won't comment on your other post...I don't need lessons in Greek to understand scripture.

Peace

CJ

Christopher John,

There are a few things I want you to know about pretribulation defenders, which you don't seem to know.

First: It was a Pretriber who first said that 2 Thessalonians 2:7 refered to the Holy Spirit as being the restrainer, and the Holy Spirit would be removed with the Rapture. (It was on the Kenneth Copeland Show. It was one of his guest defending pretribulation rapture. (But I don't beleve in a pretribulation rapture.)

Tim Lahaye also said that about 2 Thessalonians 2:7, so it's the pretribers passing that false doctrine around. It would seem like you aren't very aware of the false doctrine coming from pretribers. You don't even see what comes from your own camp.

Second: It was a pretribulation rapture defender who first told me that Isaiah 26:20,21 referred to the rapture. He was a Pastor trying to defend the rapture with it. So aparently there are even some pretribulation rapture defenders who will disagree with you about Isaiah 26:20,21.

Third: I haven't said anything about the Pretribulation theory that I haven't heard or seen from Pretribers themselves. So it would appear as if you are the one with your own theories even apart from pretribers themselves, because you seem to be completely unaware of what pretribers preach themselves.

Fourth: You keep accusing me of preaching falsely, yet you don't give any proof for your statements. You also accused me of building my theory by attacking the Pretribulation rapture theory, which I actually call exposing it for the fallacy it is. Yet I have and will continue to give scripture defending prewrath rapture itself.

It would really appear on this thread that it is you, who is trying to defend your case by attacking me. Because I don't see you giving any proof for your own statements. You falsely accuse me with no proof. I haven't seen you give one shred of Biblical evidence on this thread that supports or proves your position in any way. You give a lot of theory with no Bible to back it up.

As usual! You just keep on speaking hot puffy air with absolutely no Biblical scripture to back your statements up, except for the added words you add to your scriptures, which is typical of all pretribulation rapture defenders.

Now! Instead of just attacking every scripture I have given: When are you going to start defending your own position with scripture that actually says what you say it does. I have been waiting since 1969 for pretribers to do that.

Last: You still haven't replied to the scripture I gave from John 6:39,40, where Jesus Himself said he would raise his people up at the last day. (Not seven years before.) It would seem like you conveniently ignore a lot of scripture I have given.

I'll give even another one here you have ignored from my article for all to see here, but I'll do it to defend my positon, and also prove to all the false statement from you, that I only speak from Thessalonians and Isaiah. I haven quoted from a lot of places, and you know it.

But I want the reader to notice in Daniel 11:45 below that the antichrist is destroyed. But then if you read beyond that into Chapter 12, then you will see that at that time the antichrist is destroyed, then Michael stands up in 12:1, and the resurrection takes place in 12:2. Which means the resurrection takes place after the antichrist has been destroyed. We all know that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says the dead in Christ shall rise first right before the rapture, or the resurrection will preceed or come before the rapture. But in Daniel 12:2 we see the resurrection coming after the antichrist has been destroyed in 11:45. See where I underline his destriction and later in 12: 2 the resurrection.

Daniel 11:35

Edited June 19, 2007 by Jesus Admirer