Question For Athiests

[secondeve]

Ben, we've clashed before, and out of respect for Billie's initial intention with this thread, I'm only going to respond to you once.

secondeve, out of all that there are only three words which completely emcompass with great accuracy the reality of your circumstance.

"I cannot see." You are right secondeve...You CANNOT see. What kind of comment is, "denominational differences or specific beliefs didnt equal the right combination for being saved." Do you honestly think that religion determines salvation....?

Are you saying that Muslims will be saved, or athiests or Hindus? I think I know what you're trying to get at - that salvation is internal and not merely dictated by what someone believes on the surface - but I was asking exactly that: that if the means to salvation is what we feel internally, then the fact that someone professes themselves to be Christian is no indication of whether or not they would be gone in the Rapture. There would still be people on Earth who claimed to be Christian, but who had not been saved, because they had not been sincere internally.

Once again you chose to completely take the focus OFF yourself and pass judgement on just who YOU suggest or perceive ARE and ARE NOT True Christians.

As an UNbelielever you are doing exactly what unbelievers do. Looking at everyone except yourself. Who WILL, who WONT, who CAN, who CANNOT, who IS and who IS NOT.

These are your favourite lines in every post. How many times does it need to be spoken to you secondeve that salvation has nothing to do with YOU or I. It has everything to do with Christ.

I wasn't trying to claim to know who would or would not be saved, or who is or is not a Christian. I was just pointing out that, if there is only one way to Christ, and if Christians do not all agree on what this way is, then it stands to reason that some - and I have no idea whom, nor would I claim to - would be left behind at the Rapture.

In reference to your statement on the rapture events being pretty damn convincing proof of Christianity, I would like to point you towards a scripture in the book of Revelation.

This is speaking of the seven seals, or the seven angels....Listen carefully to this....

"The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue and yellow as sulphur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire smoke and sulphur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulphur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues STILL DID NOT REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS, THEY DID NOT STOP WORSHIPING DEMONS, AND IDOLS OF GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE, STONE AND WOOD----IDOLS THAT CANNOT SEE OR HEAR OR WALK. (They need to be carried) NOR DID THEY REPENT OF THEIR MURDERS, THEIR MAGIC ARTS, THEIR SEXUAL IMMORALITY OR THEIR THEFTS. (Revelation 9:17,21)

Secondeve, I dont claim to understand what all of this vision entails, but I do want to make a point here. Even in the midst of Gods judgements throughout the earth, there are men who still refuse to repent. God will NOT give you proof secondeve. His judgements are already throughout the earth even right now today. If you continue to deny God over and over and over again, then you will never see Gods judgments throughout the earth because in your own mind and in your own eyes you will always find some other reason for what is happening.

Ben, you accuse me of repeating myself, but so are you. Clearly, we're at an impasse. You cannot and will not convert me with this aggressive, evangelical preaching, and I cannot convert you with any of my arguments; nor am I trying to. There was a specifc question set out in the OP to which I responded. If it offends you so much that I persist in interacting on these Boards as an athiest, then I suggest you either ignore me or block my posts, so that you can't read them and thus will find nothing to offend.

The sad truth is that the UNbeliever CANNOT be taught the things of God. The whole purpose of these gifts is for the equipping of the saints. A teacher is to equip others to teach, an evangelist is to equip others to evangelise, but none of this has anything to do with UNbelievers. Unbelievers are UNteachable in the things of God.

They are DEAD to God in their sins and transgressions and will remain so until they are Born again. They stand already condemned because they refuse the forgiveness of God through Christ. Do not waste your time arguing with a person who cannot hear. You werent equipped by God for that. Let the evangelist who is truly called to evangelise bring the sheep into the fold....Then and only then can they be taught. You cannot convince a man to repent....He must be broken so his repentance is genuine. This is the work of the Holy Spirit....It is his mission to convict a man of sin and righteousness. Listen to Jesus words...

If I'm unteachable to all but the Holy Spirit, then why are you doing this? You just seem to be monolouging, saying how I should listen to you, although you claim I'm incapable of doing so, and then stating that only the Holy Spirit can change me, but then declaring that I already stand condemned. These are contradictions, Ben, and they serve no purpose here. Stick to the topic. Yes, I'm an athiest. Yes, you're a Christian. But you're garnering no respect for yourself if all you do is rail at me, nor for your beliefs, if you are representative of what I would have to become to accept them. I know there is no set 'type' of Christian - I just want you to understand that, as your own Bible would say, you can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar, or perhaps even that there is no point in casting pearls before swine. Either I'm a lost cause to your chosen method of persusasion, or you should adapt and talk to me differently. Or - happy third alternative! - you could remain silent on the subject of my athiesm and address the OP's question.

Edited November 7, 2006 by secondeve

[cjrose]

Incredible! Sometimes, as a Christian, it's hard to comprehend how others CANNOT and WILL NOT see it!

It really is inconcieveable to me also undone. I think for most, it is they WILL NOT see it, as the Spirit calls, those of us who listen answer and find the truth.

[redeemed098]

Ben, why did you choose to post a sermon which had nothing to do with the question posed? Now, you could rebut her reply or say nothing but you chose to attack her with a sermon which I find quite prideful of you...

I think secondeve's reply to be quite well thought out and insightful. With so many professing christianity and so many getting busted publicly for being "unchristian" those who remained behind would simply say those taken away were taken by satan or some other nonsense because in reality it's christians who refuse to see the truth.

Of course you think secondeves reply to be quite well thought out...Shes a godless heathen too..... I hope you realise that by calling yourself "godless" youre actually admitting that there IS a god and that you yourself have chosen to BE godless....

You know what the irony is GodlessHeathen.......You probably think youre serving nobody...You probably think youre neutral. There is a kingdom of Light and a kingdom of darkness...there is no kingdom of "Grey." Right now this very instant you are serving one of them...Regardless of your own thoughts on the matter, you ARE serving someone.

Do you know who...?

Dont worry about secondeve....We go way back.

"Unless a man repents he shall perish." Never has a more truthful word been spoken....and I didnt write it or think it, or say it........It was already WRITTEN. It is Truth or it is NOTHING>But you cant ignore it and hope it will go away..!! Just like ME....

Regards,

Ben.

[redeemed098]

Ben, we've clashed before, and out of respect for Billie's initial intention with this thread, I'm only going to respond to you once.

secondeve, out of all that there are only three words which completely emcompass with great accuracy the reality of your circumstance.

"I cannot see." You are right secondeve...You CANNOT see. What kind of comment is, "denominational differences or specific beliefs didnt equal the right combination for being saved." Do you honestly think that religion determines salvation....?

Are you saying that Muslims will be saved, or athiests or Hindus? I think I know what you're trying to get at - that salvation is internal and not merely dictated by what someone believes on the surface - but I was asking exactly that: that if the means to salvation is what we feel internally, then the fact that someone professes themselves to be Christian is no indication of whether or not they would be gone in the Rapture. There would still be people on Earth who claimed to be Christian, but who had not been saved, because they had not been sincere internally.

Once again you chose to completely take the focus OFF yourself and pass judgement on just who YOU suggest or perceive ARE and ARE NOT True Christians.

As an UNbelielever you are doing exactly what unbelievers do. Looking at everyone except yourself. Who WILL, who WONT, who CAN, who CANNOT, who IS and who IS NOT.

These are your favourite lines in every post. How many times does it need to be spoken to you secondeve that salvation has nothing to do with YOU or I. It has everything to do with Christ.

I wasn't trying to claim to know who would or would not be saved, or who is or is not a Christian. I was just pointing out that, if there is only one way to Christ, and if Christians do not all agree on what this way is, then it stands to reason that some - and I have no idea whom, nor would I claim to - would be left behind at the Rapture.

In reference to your statement on the rapture events being pretty damn convincing proof of Christianity, I would like to point you towards a scripture in the book of Revelation.

This is speaking of the seven seals, or the seven angels....Listen carefully to this....

"The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue and yellow as sulphur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire smoke and sulphur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulphur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues STILL DID NOT REPENT OF THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS, THEY DID NOT STOP WORSHIPING DEMONS, AND IDOLS OF GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE, STONE AND WOOD----IDOLS THAT CANNOT SEE OR HEAR OR WALK. (They need to be carried) NOR DID THEY REPENT OF THEIR MURDERS, THEIR MAGIC ARTS, THEIR SEXUAL IMMORALITY OR THEIR THEFTS. (Revelation 9:17,21)

Secondeve, I dont claim to understand what all of this vision entails, but I do want to make a point here. Even in the midst of Gods judgements throughout the earth, there are men who still refuse to repent. God will NOT give you proof secondeve. His judgements are already throughout the earth even right now today. If you continue to deny God over and over and over again, then you will never see Gods judgments throughout the earth because in your own mind and in your own eyes you will always find some other reason for what is happening.

Ben, you accuse me of repeating myself, but so are you. Clearly, we're at an impasse. You cannot and will not convert me with this aggressive, evangelical preaching, and I cannot convert you with any of my arguments; nor am I trying to. There was a specifc question set out in the OP to which I responded. If it offends you so much that I persist in interacting on these Boards as an athiest, then I suggest you either ignore me or block my posts, so that you can't read them and thus will find nothing to offend.

The sad truth is that the UNbeliever CANNOT be taught the things of God. The whole purpose of these gifts is for the equipping of the saints. A teacher is to equip others to teach, an evangelist is to equip others to evangelise, but none of this has anything to do with UNbelievers. Unbelievers are UNteachable in the things of God.

They are DEAD to God in their sins and transgressions and will remain so until they are Born again. They stand already condemned because they refuse the forgiveness of God through Christ. Do not waste your time arguing with a person who cannot hear. You werent equipped by God for that. Let the evangelist who is truly called to evangelise bring the sheep into the fold....Then and only then can they be taught. You cannot convince a man to repent....He must be broken so his repentance is genuine. This is the work of the Holy Spirit....It is his mission to convict a man of sin and righteousness. Listen to Jesus words...

If I'm unteachable to all but the Holy Spirit, then why are you doing this? You just seem to be monolouging, saying how I should listen to you, although you claim I'm incapable of doing so, and then stating that only the Holy Spirit can change me, but then declaring that I already stand condemned. These are contradictions, Ben, and they serve no purpose here. Stick to the topic. Yes, I'm an athiest. Yes, you're a Christian. But you're garnering no respect for yourself if all you do is rail at me, nor for your beliefs, if you are representative of what I would have to become to accept them. I know there is no set 'type' of Christian - I just want you to understand that, as your own Bible would say, you can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar, or perhaps even that there is no point in casting pearls before swine. Either I'm a lost cause to your chosen method of persusasion, or you should adapt and talk to me differently. Or - happy third alternative! - you could remain silent on the subject of my athiesm and address the OP's question.

Secondeve,

Theyre not contradictions. Until you have Jesus as your lawyer so to speak, you are on your own and stand condemned. It is only the Holy Spirit that can change your heart as only HE is able to convict you of what sin IS and bring you to True repentance. Until you are Saved by the grace of God, you are dead to God in your sins and transgressions.

That is what is meant by you stand ALREADY condemned....It doesnt mean this situation is beyond hope.

Secondly, I have no other desire than to see you saved secondeve as does everyone else on these boards. You will never die saying that Redeemed didnt do his best to share the Truth of Gods word with me. Sometimes I would like to just slap you around a little and try to knock some sense into you...(with all humility and due respect of course)

Im sure there are a few others who would like to also...They just wouldnt say it because theyre afraid to tell you how they really feel..

I know I cant save you secondeve, but that doesnt nullify my passion TO see you saved. If you saw someone heading for a cliff with a blindfold on, what would you do..?

If you saw someone about to jump out of a plane without a parachute, what would you do....??? If you saw someone heading for a place of eternal suffering, would you not do all you possibly could to warn this person....As a Follower of Christ, is it not my duty to scream it to you from the rooftops....? How am I truly demonstrating Gods Love to you secondeve by just standing around and watching you perish...?

It would be like a fireman sitting in the comfort of his firetruck while the building around him burns to the ground..He has everything at his disposal to put the fire out and could possibly even run into the burning building and save someone...But does nothing..! I dont have a firehose that can put out the fires of Hell secondeve, but I have the word of God which is the good news of Gods salvation through Jesus Christ...We are on a computer secondeve talking from different parts of the globe...You dont know me and I dont know you, but the gospel is for everyone. Its all I have that I can share with you. I sincerely hope that one day we WILL meet.. I wont ask you to forgive me for the way I evangelise to you because I mean every word of what I say...I wont sugar coat a very serious message for you so that it sounds appealing..You life means more to me than that. In all seriousness...I'm not jesting here..this is a very serious issue, its not a game.

Regards,

Ben.

[redeemed098]

Ben, why did you choose to post a sermon which had nothing to do with the question posed? Now, you could rebut her reply or say nothing but you chose to attack her with a sermon which I find quite prideful of you...

I think secondeve's reply to be quite well thought out and insightful. With so many professing christianity and so many getting busted publicly for being "unchristian" those who remained behind would simply say those taken away were taken by satan or some other nonsense because in reality it's christians who refuse to see the truth.

GodlessHeathen,

By the way. Deception relies on ignorance is quite a true statement.......Paul said it himself....Until his road to Damascus experience with the Lord, he claims that his Unbelief was due to ignorance. Listen to this...

"I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and Love that are in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 1:12,14)

When Paul realised that persecuting followers of Christ meant that he was persecuting the Lord Jesus himself, the persecution stopped.

This is the only time YOUR persecution of the followers of Christ will stop. When YOU encounter the Lord Jesus...Once you receive that knowledge, you will no longer be ignorant to the things of God.

You will also realise how futile your persecution of Christs followers was...Jesus came for the sinner....If you arent a sinner then he didnt come for YOU. He said it himself.."I did not come for those who are righteous." "all have fallen short of the glory of God. There is NONE who are righteous, no not ONE." When you focus on others to justify yourself, you fall into a very big trap..No one elses sins will ever excuse YOURS> To God a lie is as sinful as a murder, because one eventually leads to the other. Dont try and say you have never murdered....Jesus said that if you have hated your brother, you are guilty. If you have looked with lust upon a person you have commited adultery of the heart. God looks at the INTENT. NOT the act. It is the INTENT that LEADS to the act. The Law is only acted upon if one has transgressed it, but law in itself does not have the power to stop a man from sinning...That is why Jesus came.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift from God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Without the second part of that promise from God, all that awaits is the first part. There is no second part for those withOUT Christ.

And by the way GodlessHeathen, I did address the original post......Read the "Sermon" again....I addressed the problem as one that will NOT be witnessed by those who do NOT believe and used scripture to support it.....Even after all of these plagues and events there will still be men who will not repent....This clearly indicates that these events will only be realised by those who believe. Those who do NOT will always find some other logical explanation for all that is happening. I do not know how the rapture will occurr. All I DO know is what scripture states. How could one read the events of Revelation with the seven angels and the seven seals and still NOT repent...? As I stated to secondeve....People who do not believe, CANNOT SEE..If men havent repented after this, then clearly the so called rapture came and went without them even realising.

"You have seen and believe, but blessed are those who have NOT seen and believe."

You are all talking as though the rapture is something that everyone will be aware of... I do not think this is so. Only those with eyes to see, will see, and only those with ears to hear, will hear. How many people recognise the hand of Gods judgement in the world today...??? The Word of God tells us that if Gods judgements were NOT throughout all the world, then NO MAN would repent. Men ARE repenting, so clearly Gods judgements ARE throughout the world....Gods ways are not our ways. The only way to God is through Christ and Today is the day of salvation.

"He who has the son of God has life, but he who does not have the son of God does not have life, and Gods Wrath abides upon that man."

Regards,

Ben.

[redeemed098]

Some Christians believe in the Rapture, the taking away of the Church into Heaven, before, during or after the Tribulation.

My question to athiests is what would you think if you woke up one morning and all the Christians in the world were gone? Would you consider the possibility that a Rapture had taken place, or would you think it was something else?

My most humble apologies billie for hijacking the thread. Sorry....I will leave it now so everyone can continue addressing the OP.

Couldnt help myself...You know how it is....!!

Regards,

Ben.

[Candi770]

Just answer the question, if you woke to find, countless numbers of people gone-what would you think????

[Candi770]

Hi Billie- How are you???

love

candi770

[StewartP]

Sure, if I woke up, one day tens of thousands of people have disappeared, and the signs all point to rapture (empty churches?) then that'd be a big wake up call. I'd dig out the bible and start doing some Ezekiel and Revelations reading, see what my options are.

What a relief it's not going to happen tho!

[Ovedya]

Sure, if I woke up, one day tens of thousands of people have disappeared, and the signs all point to rapture (empty churches?) then that'd be a big wake up call. I'd dig out the bible and start doing some Ezekiel and Revelations reading, see what my options are.

What a relief it's not going to happen tho!

By that time it will already be to late for you. Now is your time to make a choice.