TheProcess Posted December 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2006 Peter Lounsbury, I will continue this issue in the thread that you started for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2006 So we have another Christian wanting to use the "probability of prophecy fulfillment" argument. I'm not 'wanting' to, I am. Well you can use the argument, and I can refute it for you. The probability of Jesus fulfilling X number of prophecies isn't especially important, because you can't prove that he fulfilled X number of prophecies in the first place. The probability value is purely academic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2006 The validation doesn't stop with prophecy or my testimony either. There's historical and archeological evidence to support the bible. That the New Testament talks about genuine cities (not difficult to get correct is it?) and mentions genuine people (e.g. John the Baptist, Pilate) doesn't show that the gospel story is genuine. There's the testimony of millions of people throughout the past 2000 years. You could find millions of Hindu's, Muslims etc. etc. There's the inference of design throughout creation. A God existing wouldn't tell us that Jesus was "Christ". There's the NT accounts of wonders and signs (I know your argument but that doesn't mean they're not true acts of the Messiah either). My argument, is that on Biblical criteria, "signs" aren't a proof that Jesus was a genuine prophet. And I would say that when we consider those Biblical criteria -- whether Christianity is consistent with Judaism -- the Christian is going to be in serious difficulty. You can't verify your claims with 100% confidence of their accuracy either. I think I can have a very high degree of confidence that the New Testament claims about prophecy fulfillment are as dubious as it gets. I doubt any of us Christians who participate on Worthy are pinning the validity of their beliefs and faith on much of anything outside their personal transformations by the Holy Spirit after placing their trust in Jesus Christ our Lord. Again, the rest is gravy. What Christians base their beliefs and faith on isn't the issue here. The issue is whether Jesus is "who he said he is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 9, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2006 I'd say the most powerful evidence for me personally is my own testimony of a changed life. But you did not know me before becoming saved and unless someone asks, I will refrain from writing the full story here. "Suppose we think of salvation in a much more concrete and empirically observable way as an actual change in men and women from natural self-centredness to, in theistic terms, God-centredness, or in more general terms, a new orientation centred in the Ultimate, the Real, as conceived and experienced within one's own tradition. Salvation in this sense is the central concern of each of the great world religions. Within Christianity it is conceptualized and experienced as the state in which Paul could say, 'It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me' (Gal. 2:20, RSV). Within Judaism it is conceived and experienced as the joy and responsibility of life lived in accordance with God's Torah. Within Islam it is conceived and experienced as a personal self-surrender to God in a life lived according to God's revealed commands. With Advaitic Hinduism it is conceived and experienced as a transcending of the ego and discovery of unity with the eternal reality of Brahman. Within Buddhism it is conceived and experienced as a loss of the ego point of view in a discovery of the Buddha nature of the universal interdependent process of which we are all part. And in each case this transformation of human existence from self-centredness to Reality-centredness is reached by a moral and spiritual path. So if we understand by salvation the transition to a life centred in the Divine, the Ultimate, the Real, we can properly look about us for the signs of it. To what extent is this transformation actually taking place among Christians, among Jews, among Muslims, among Hindus, among Buddhists? I suggest that, so far as we can tell, it is taking place to much the same extent within each of these traditions. It is true that we have no organized evidence or statistics to establish this. But we can properly put the issue the other way round. If anyone asserts that Christians in general are morally and spiritually better human beings than Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists in general, the onus is on them to produce the evidence for this. It cannot simply be affirmed a priori, without regard to the concrete realities of human life." John Hick (2001) 'The Theological Challenge of Religious Pluralism' in John Hick & Brian Hebblethwaite (eds) Christianity and Other Religions: Selected Readings (Oxford: Oneworld Publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted December 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 10, 2006 I'd say the most powerful evidence for me personally is my own testimony of a changed life. But you did not know me before becoming saved and unless someone asks, I will refrain from writing the full story here. "Suppose we think of salvation in a much more concrete and empirically observable way as an actual change in men and women from natural self-centredness to, in theistic terms, God-centredness, or in more general terms, a new orientation centred in the Ultimate, the Real, as conceived and experienced within one's own tradition. Salvation in this sense is the central concern of each of the great world religions. Within Christianity it is conceptualized and experienced as the state in which Paul could say, 'It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me' (Gal. 2:20, RSV). Within Judaism it is conceived and experienced as the joy and responsibility of life lived in accordance with God's Torah. Within Islam it is conceived and experienced as a personal self-surrender to God in a life lived according to God's revealed commands. With Advaitic Hinduism it is conceived and experienced as a transcending of the ego and discovery of unity with the eternal reality of Brahman. Within Buddhism it is conceived and experienced as a loss of the ego point of view in a discovery of the Buddha nature of the universal interdependent process of which we are all part. And in each case this transformation of human existence from self-centredness to Reality-centredness is reached by a moral and spiritual path. So if we understand by salvation the transition to a life centred in the Divine, the Ultimate, the Real, we can properly look about us for the signs of it. To what extent is this transformation actually taking place among Christians, among Jews, among Muslims, among Hindus, among Buddhists? I suggest that, so far as we can tell, it is taking place to much the same extent within each of these traditions. It is true that we have no organized evidence or statistics to establish this. But we can properly put the issue the other way round. If anyone asserts that Christians in general are morally and spiritually better human beings than Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Buddhists in general, the onus is on them to produce the evidence for this. It cannot simply be affirmed a priori, without regard to the concrete realities of human life." John Hick (2001) 'The Theological Challenge of Religious Pluralism' in John Hick & Brian Hebblethwaite (eds) Christianity and Other Religions: Selected Readings (Oxford: Oneworld Publications) I can't speak for or against the validity of an other faith experience. I can only testify to my own experience and to the compelling evidence I believe to be found in Christianity. I can tell you that I was once a hopeless alcoholic. In despair over my inability to control my insatiable desire. Technically, I was "saved" as I had been through the motions. One day I decided to attend a Billy Graham Crusade just to say I'd been. His crusades start with worship music provided by the choir and two popular Christians artists. That night was The Gaithers and Micheal W. Smith. I was sitting in my seat listening to the music and enjoying it. Smith, the final performer before the speakers, was about half way through his set. All of the sudden, I felt a presence of something that touched my heart. It's hard to explain but it came over me like a wave of peace and joy. I felt as though I were witnessing a glimpse of what heaven was going to be like. A sea of people praising and worshipping our Lord. I began to break out into uncontrollable tears (mind you, no preaching from Mr. Graham had even started). I began to feel a sense of regret for the time that had passed in my life where I had squandered the opportunity to serve Him. To teach my children about Him. But I was assured that everything was okay and that today was a new day. This presence was so thick, I felt I could swirl my hand in it like a pool of water. I had never experienced anything like this in my life. I was not expecting anything going in. I continued to weep throughout the rest of the service. My wife asked me if I needed to go down to the stadium floor for the altar call Mr. Graham gives at the end of each service. I told her no, after all, I was already saved. We left the stadium and all the way home I continued to weep. I couldn't explain why. This presence stayed with me for two days. For two days I wept. I wasn't weeping out of regret, but more a weeping of joy. A joy that God did not abandon me despite my alcoholism and other misgivings in my past. At the end of the two days, my desire for alcohol was gone. I don't even think about it anymore. You have to understand the strength of my addiction to appreciate what it meant to be free. Truly free! Now someone may try to psycho-analyze what happened to me and give me a naturalistic explanation, but I know what I know. I can only share it with others. I believe I should share it with others. He touched me in a deep and profound way that will stay with me for the rest of my life. I had other "spiritual" experiences before then and have since as well. But nothing compares to the day I was set free from the bondage of alcoholism. Process, I don't know what other "religions" claim. I'm not sure I care other than I believe that Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life and I would like everyone, no matter their faith or background, to know the true God. I only ask that you trust that I am speaking from my heart. I have little to gain from sharing this with you. I hope that you respect my feelings and not try to take shots at what happened to me. If you were to, at that point, I truly feel I wil have "cast my pearls." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 10, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2006 I hope that you respect my feelings and not try to take shots at what happened to me. If you were to, at that point, I truly feel I wil have "cast my pearls." I am not interested in taking "shots" at you, but your personal testimony isn't evidence that Jesus is the Messiah/God/whatever. I'm sure you know that we could find examples of religious experience within different religious traditions to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjrose Posted December 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,580 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/13/1960 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I hope that you respect my feelings and not try to take shots at what happened to me. If you were to, at that point, I truly feel I wil have "cast my pearls." I am not interested in taking "shots" at you, but your personal testimony isn't evidence that Jesus is the Messiah/God/whatever. I'm sure you know that we could find examples of religious experience within different religious traditions to Christianity. Quite the contrary. Our personal testimonies are evidence in the purest most raw form. Failing to see the transformation that undone has just described is evidence. It's tangile to him and continues to be. You can have your own tangible evidence if you stop thinking about religion all together and focus on asking different questions that might lead to your own experience which is very much evidence. God Bless you bro, undone, for that testimony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Praise God for what Jesus has done in your life, undone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheProcess Posted December 12, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 487 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/27/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2006 Quite the contrary. Our personal testimonies are evidence in the purest most raw form. Failing to see the transformation that undone has just described is evidence. It's tangile to him and continues to be. You can have your own tangible evidence if you stop thinking about religion all together and focus on asking different questions that might lead to your own experience which is very much evidence. God Bless you bro, undone, for that testimony Here is something that I noticed on the BBC religion forums: *UMMM! NO to this link!* Should we accept this personal testimony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billie Posted December 12, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,849 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/17/1979 Share Posted December 12, 2006 It depends on what you mean by "accept". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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