Is Jesus who He said He is?

[TheProcess]

No, what you mean, is that Christians don't live like Jews. Christians believe in and try to live (generally) by the moral stipulations of OT Torah. They do not follow the dietary laws because that was not given to them, but to Israel.

Something you need to understand is that not every verse in the Bible is for every person in every age. Some things were given only to Israel, so to find fault with Christians for not doing what they were not commanded to is kind of silly.

Every passage of scripture as an address. Just like on a the front of an envelope, it tells you the sender, and the intended recipient. It is the same with the Bible. There is an author and an intended recipient. While we are able to learn from those passages we are not commanded to keep them as a matter of daily observance. If a Christian wants to keep the dietary laws, he is free to do so, but that is a matter of conscience between he/she and the Lord.

I am really not sure that this is a relevant reply to what I have said.

My point is that Christianity is inconsistent with the O.T. for dumping the law, that there isn't anything like a good enough scriptural justification to do so. And I don't think Christianity merely says, "Jews have the law, but we have been given something else".

Even today the Jewish people do not keep the whole Torah. Without a Temple, over 1/3 of the Torah goes unobserved, and of course the Jewish people on the liberal end of the spectrum observe as little as they can get away with, so honestly, this approach of yours really doesn't work.

What approach are you talking about?

Yes, Jews can't follow everything in the Torah because they don't have a Temple and they don't have a theocratic state.

You obviously lack a lot of knowledge as to the proper relationship of the various parts of the Bible, one to another, and the proper relationship between the Christian and the Old Testament.

Christians are forever telling me how little I know.

OK.

[Guest K.R.E.B.S]

Hey Process, just for clarification, (and please excuse me if I should know this, I'm new) but are you Jewish and "practicing?" Thanks.

-KREBS

[undone]

First of all, I want you to know you're not alone. As evidenced by the multiple posts you've already recieved from brothers and sisters here on Worthy, there are people who care.

Next, I've been in a similar situation myself. I had been a Christian for a long time and never questioned the teaching I had recieved for so many years. The peculiar thing was, this doubt overcame me in the midst of a bible study. We were in Corinthians where Paul says something to the effect of , "If our faith is not real, let us eat, drink, and be merry." All of the sudden, I started to entertain the idea that it might not be real for the first time ever. IT WAS THE MOST FRIGHTENING EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. I tossed and turned in anguish over this dilemma. What ultimately happened was I forced myself to dig deeply in the word and pray. I wasn't going to give up without searching the depths of every resource I had.

What I determined was a couple of things. First, the faith I have wasn't faith that I obtained from my own efforts to gain it. The bible says that God imparts to each one the full measure of faith. So, I couldn't add to it, I could only uncover and realize what I already had.

Plus, I had to rewind all the things I had learned about creation. Science may challenge you from time to time, but it does not have all the answers. The answers it does have are incomplete. A totally unreliable means to give up your faith.

Next, I believe we, and I mean all Christians at one point or another, will go through periods like this. We are challenged to hold on by hope and faith alone. A test or a lesson in living by faith, not by sight. Not by my ability to figure it all out and nail it down. To humble you. You indicated you had been diligent in bible study. So had I. Pride begins to set in, thinking you've got it all down. But who can fully know the mind of God? Who can be so arrogant? What happens is your personal Tower of Babel gets knocked down. We have to repent and return to Him as a child. God resists the proud, but gives favor to the humble. You, probably like I, had always wanted and prayed that God would work in us, grow us, or lead us into the place where we could be closest to Him. Well that means the pride goes out the window.

As result of this experience, I grew, just like I had prayed. Ever since then, whenever I'm challenged, I draw on this experience and the doubt quickly fades. I continue to learn, but I strive to never assume I know it all. I don't even have that as a goal until I am in the presence of His Glory. The Lord delivered on my prayer. I've tapped into the faith that was imparted to me and recognize it for what it is. Jesus said that the wicked require a sign. I'd just as soon live by faith for the rest of my life. As the bible says, without faith, it's impossible to please God. I'd rather please Him than please my flesh with a sign.

One other thing I heard that may help. Rick Warren, author of Purpose Driven Life, was on CNN with Larry King. Rick said, "one of the problems we have is that we doubt or beliefs and believe our doubts. It should be the other way around. We should believe or beliefs and doubt our doubts." I think those are wise words.

Amen! I have truly been there myself. I do have a question though. I was in the chatrooms for the first time the other day, and there was a member on there who was saying some really weird stuff about Jesus. Things i've never heard before. I was curious because it seemed to go against everything i know about the Bible, but i had no way to say he was wrong. I don't know much about any period in history, and he seemed pretty knowledgeable. Help?

What I suggest is to hold on to what you know until you've done enough research of your own to make an informed decision about the contradicting information. You should approach every peice of online correspondence with a critical eye. After all, you never know who you're talking to and what their intentions are. Though here on Worthy, you quickly get a sense of who holds similar views and theology as yourself.

I tend to view my choice to engage online as a way to put to practice what I believe and think. Rarely have I posted a statement or question that goes unchallenged. These challenges cause me to dig deeper and find the truth behind my beliefs. Ultimately, I owe nothing to the challenger if they are not convinced of my interpretations of truth. Some people will argue whether the sky is blue and the grass is green, just for the sake of a good satisfying argument. They can even seem psycopathic at times. But, that's the internet.

[TheProcess]

Grace to you,

that is why God provided ways to atone for sin. If God provided ways to atone for sin, it doesn't look as if he expected anyone to perfectly keep the law does it?

Exactly.

Now, what ways can you atone for sin today?

This appears to be a diversion from the issue. Perhaps there is a problem in Judaism today: that Jews aren't able to atone for sin because they don't have a Temple. However, this is irrelevant to the issue of whether Christianity is consistent with the Old Testament. Also, I think the Christian view of O.T. law isn't simply that it can't be followed for the kind of reason that you give.

So anyway, I think what you are saying is an irrelevant diversion, but lets look at it anyway:

Respectfully the Jew cannot atone for sin either. Simply because without the shedding of Blood there is no forgiveness of sin;

Le

[TheProcess]

Hey Process, just for clarification, (and please excuse me if I should know this, I'm new) but are you Jewish and "practicing?" Thanks.

-KREBS

Not Jewish at all.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Jews think that it is prophesied that the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices resumed. If true, this seems to conflict with the idea that Jesus was a "once for all" sacrifice.

Your very artfully dodging the question. I didn't ask you about the sin of the Jew. I asked you about your sin.

Since you seem to put such weight upon the Jewish system of Religious acts to disprove Christ. I want to know to what regard you hold your own sins accountable before a Holy, Just, and Righteous God. How are you making atonement today.

You seem to want to put Gods Word and Christianity on trial.

However when convenient;

This is seen as evidence that prayer and repentance would be enough to atone for sin.

And with regard to Leviticus 17:11, which someone will probably mention:

(a) The topic of Leviticus 17:10-14 is not even about atonement for sin, but about a prohibition on consuming blood.

(b) All it says is that blood is the part of animal sacrifice that atones for sin, and that it has been given for this purpose. It doesn't say that ONLY blood will atone for sin. And that certainly isn't the case.

QUOTE

But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering. (Leviticus 5:11 KJV)

If flour can be used to atone for sin, then it is obvious that sacrifice doesn't need to be blood sacrifice. And sacrifice isn't the only way to atone for sin according to the Old Testament. But then, I guess we can't expect Christians to care about what the Bible actually teaches.

You offer up Faith in Gods Word as an argument To which we do not disagree.

It is Faith in the finished work of Christ that matters. It is what saved Abraham. It is a Faith offering, believeing Gods Word, and looking forward to Christ to slaughter a Bull and sprinkle his blood on the altar for a sin offering. It is by Faith that someone who cannot afford a Bull offers a seah of fine flour. It is by Faith that Abels sacrifice was found more pleasing than Cains. It just wasn't that God hated produce and marked Cain out over it. It was a condition of Faith and belief in ones heart

That is where the offering comes forth from..

The Religious system of the Jews was about Faith in Gods Living Word.

Which is the exact point of my initial posting that you are replying to.

What are you putting your Faith in Procees for the forgiveness of your sins? That's my question. You must hold that you have sin otherwise why use the argument of the Jewish Religious system. It won't matter if they rebuild the Temple or not. Their offering will not be Pleasing to God. it simply will be performed outside of Faith and Belief in the Word of God.

So let's not play dodgeball. Let's get serious for a moment.

Do you have Faith in your accumulated knowledge that has left you with further misunderstanding. Or do you have Faith in God and His Word.

It's really that simple because without Faith it is impossible to Please God. Faith that is pleasing to God is Faith in the shedding of the Messiahs Blood on your behlaf. Whether foreshadowed in His Mercy by allowing a seah of fine flour for those who could not afford the Bull. Or the Bull. Doesn't really matter. It's all about Jesus.

He's alltogether Lovely and Worthy to be Praised and the Truth of the matter is that without the shedding of His Blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Peace,

Dave

[Ovedya]

Your very artfully dodging the question. I didn't ask you about the sin of the Jew. I asked you about your sin.

Since you seem to put such weight upon the Jewish system of Religious acts to disprove Christ. I want to know to what regard you hold your own sins accountable before a Holy, Just, and Righteous God. How are you making atonement today.

This is an excellent question! God's way of atonement is a set standard. Since there is only one way, you can only take one way. Which way will you take?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Nov 15 2006, 05:31 PM)

No, what you mean, is that Christians don't live like Jews. Christians believe in and try to live (generally) by the moral stipulations of OT Torah. They do not follow the dietary laws because that was not given to them, but to Israel.

Something you need to understand is that not every verse in the Bible is for every person in every age. Some things were given only to Israel, so to find fault with Christians for not doing what they were not commanded to is kind of silly.

Every passage of scripture as an address. Just like on a the front of an envelope, it tells you the sender, and the intended recipient. It is the same with the Bible. There is an author and an intended recipient. While we are able to learn from those passages we are not commanded to keep them as a matter of daily observance. If a Christian wants to keep the dietary laws, he is free to do so, but that is a matter of conscience between he/she and the Lord.

I am really not sure that this is a relevant reply to what I have said.

My point is that Christianity is inconsistent with the O.T. for dumping the law, that there isn't anything like a good enough scriptural justification to do so. And I don't think Christianity merely says, "Jews have the law, but we have been given something else".

It is absolutely relevant, because I am explaining that Christians were not commanded to live as Jews, and therefore they are not "dumping" something that was never their's to start with. Christianity does not reject or repudiate the law, as I said, we strive to obey it commandments. The problem is that you brought up the dietary laws to prove that Christians "dumped" the law, and it is simply not a good example. You are trying to dodge the truth that Christians do still read the OT, preach from it, and seek to live according to the portions of it that are relevant to the Christian life. Many Christians on their own, DO keep the dietary commandments as a matter of their own personal choice, they celebrate the Feasts of Israel, and so forth.

My point is that you are trying to poison the well by opening up from the premise that the whole Bible is for everyone, but the Church has rejected it, and therefore, you see that as way of discrediting Christians in some form or another. The problem is that you don't have a good grasp on hermeneutics, and it is obvious in your posts.

QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Nov 15 2006, 05:31 PM)

Even today the Jewish people do not keep the whole Torah. Without a Temple, over 1/3 of the Torah goes unobserved, and of course the Jewish people on the liberal end of the spectrum observe as little as they can get away with, so honestly, this approach of yours really doesn't work.

What approach are you talking about?

Yes, Jews can't follow everything in the Torah because they don't have a Temple and they don't have a theocratic state.

The approach that uses Christian nonobservance of the OT law as means of discrediting what we believe when I can show you Jewish people who do not even stay kosher except during the high holydays and maybe during Passover. Yo

Jews think that it is prophesied that the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices resumed. If true, this seems to conflict with the idea that Jesus was a "once for all" sacrifice.

No it does not. What the book of Hebrews says is that Jesus was the once for all sin offering, and it was specifically referring to the sin offering of Yom Kippur. The Temple will be rebuilt, and you can read about it in the last nine chapters of Ezekiel. You will notice as you read that the sin offering of Yom Kippur is not in the list of Sacrifices that will be performed in the Millennial Temple. Not every sacrifice was a sin offering.

[Beta]

Job,33 v 14, for God speaks once, yea twice, yet man perceives it not.

[billie]

Job,33 v 14, for God speaks once, yea twice, yet man perceives it not.

Amen.