Gifts of the Holy Spirit

[Sherman]

Brother Sherman,

I am sure you consider what I have to say as an irritant that borders on, if not considered, blasphemy. But I am quite familiar with 1Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14 and have studied them through many times as well as Acts 2, 10, 19 and Jude 20.

Brother Davve,

Thanks for your reply. What you said was not either an irritant or blasphemy. There are many exceses in the Charisamatic/Pentecostal movement, and people can get so caught up in the spiritual gifts that they loose sight of the giver - very sad. And rather than having faith and just trusting in God, they can easily believe that they can and must "control" everything through their words and actions. Some people are afraid to tell the truth because they are making a negative confession.

Concerning "women keeping silent in the churches", just like Paul's instructions on the spiritual gifts must be understood in the light of the problems he was addressing, so must these verses on women, so must the verses on MDR, so must all of the verses. They all must be understood in their context (cultural, literary, historical, and authorial). But of course, you know this.

Concerning the charismatic hyper-faith movement, if you were into that heavily, I understand your aversion to anything to do with it. Truth is often found in the middle of the tight rope stretched between two seemingly opposing concepts. If we get off to either side we get into error. Sadly, many who "stood on the promices" and made all the right "faith confessions" did not see the things come to pass that they were "believing for." I learned a long time ago the hard way, that faith often means more "trust though you don't recive" than it does to "believe to receive" something.

Concerning tongues being the most effecient way to pray, or praying in tongues almost exclusively, as you know that's not the truth or a good practice. Paul said that he prayed both in tongues and with his understanding; both are important and we shouldn't neglect either. But I suppose if you were way over on one side of the pendulum and you've swung back to the otherside now, that's understandable.

I'm sorry if what I said was offensive or overly aggressive; though I believe what I wrote is true, understanding your testimony demands much more grace on my part. And it's my prayer that you and I, we all, might be increasingly filled with the Love of the Lord.

Sincerely,

your brother in Christ,

Sherman

[matthew4:4]

Brother Sherman,

I am sure you consider what I have to say as an irritant that borders on, if not considered, blasphemy. But I am quite familiar with 1Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14 and have studied them through many times as well as Acts 2, 10, 19 and Jude 20.

Brother Davve,

Thanks for your reply. What you said was not either an irritant or blasphemy. There are many exceses in the Charisamatic/Pentecostal movement, and people can get so caught up in the spiritual gifts that they loose sight of the giver - very sad. And rather than having faith and just trusting in God, they can easily believe that they can and must "control" everything through their words and actions. Some people are afraid to tell the truth because they are making a negative confession.

Concerning "women keeping silent in the churches", just like Paul's instructions on the spiritual gifts must be understood in the light of the problems he was addressing, so must these verses on women, so must the verses on MDR, so must all of the verses. They all must be understood in their context (cultural, literary, historical, and authorial). But of course, you know this.

Concerning the charismatic hyper-faith movement, if you were into that heavily, I understand your aversion to anything to do with it. Truth is often found in the middle of the tight rope stretched between two seemingly opposing concepts. If we get off to either side we get into error. Sadly, many who "stood on the promices" and made all the right "faith confessions" did not see the things come to pass that they were "believing for." I learned a long time ago the hard way, that faith often means more "trust though you don't recive" than it does to "believe to receive" something.

Concerning tongues being the most effecient way to pray, or praying in tongues almost exclusively, as you know that's not the truth or a good practice. Paul said that he prayed both in tongues and with his understanding; both are important and we shouldn't neglect either. But I suppose if you were way over on one side of the pendulum and you've swung back to the otherside now, that's understandable.

I'm sorry if what I said was offensive or overly aggressive; though I believe what I wrote is true, understanding your testimony demands much more grace on my part. And it's my prayer that you and I, we all, might be increasingly filled with the Love of the Lord.

Sincerely,

your brother in Christ,

Sherman

Sorry to interrupt,

But I have a few questions I would like to see an answer for.

First of all Sherman, you believe that we are very close to the end of times, correct? Ok, and you seem to also believe that the church is going to be growing stronger because well how can it not if there truly are these gifts. Well, it just seems like you do believe the church is going to get stronger but we know by prophesies that the church will definetly be reduced or weakened towards the end.

Another question concerning corinthians 13:8-13 about prophecy ceasing and such. I know that you and many believers in the gifts believe that the part referring to when the perfect comes the imperfect will disappear is referring to christ and the second coming. But I have read that the word perfect in greek is a neuter word and can not refer to Jesus or God and the word perfect appears about 13 other times in the bible and it never refers to Jesus. What is your answer in this case?

And one more before I go to sleep. Do you claim that the BHS has to do with recieving spiritual gifts from God. I believe I have already recieved the BHS and it has to do with the change that Jesus makes on your life through the fruits of the holy spirit. Read this excerpt.

2. How do you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?

The Charismatic answer:

"'How do I know that the Holy Spirit dwells within me?' Charismatic Renewal offers an answer to this question--the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a powerful experience that convinces the recipient that God is real" (Richard Quebedeaux, The New Charismatics, original edition, page 2).

In other words, "I know that it is true because I have experienced it. I have felt it. It has happened to me!"

The Biblical answer is found in Romans 8:9 -- "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of HIS." If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he is not His. He does not belong to Christ. He is not a Christian. If I am a saved person, then I have the Holy Spirit. How do I know? I KNOW SO, because God SAYS SO! All who believe on Christ have received the Spirit (John 7:39). Paul said, "The Holy Spirit dwelleth in us" (2 Timothy 1:14) and this is true of every blood-bought child of God. According to God's definition (1 Cor. 6:19; Rom. 8:9; John 7:39; etc.), a Christian is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus has received the Spirit. There is no such thing as a person who is justified by faith but who has not received the Spirit.

The fact of the Spirit's reception and indwelling presence is not based on some subjective and questionable experience. It is based upon the plain statements of the Word of God.

Oh sry one more. If there are other religions(non-christian religions) that can speak in tongues than why on earth should I believe that tongues of today comes from God. I mean there are even some satanic type cults that do it.

Thanks for your answers. Your brother in Christ, matthew

[Sherman]

Good Morning Matthew,

Thanks for the reply and questions. I thoroughly enjoy wrestling over the Word. I especially win when I loose! Hallelujah! I'll address them one at a time.

First of all Sherman, you believe that we are very close to the end of times, correct? Ok, and you seem to also believe that the church is going to be growing stronger because well how can it not if there truly are these gifts. Well, it just seems like you do believe the church is going to get stronger but we know by prophesies that the church will definetly be reduced or weakened towards the end.

Actually, I don't know how close we are to the end times. It could be soon, even so come Lord Jesus. It could be thousands of years away, until heaven is fully populated and all the world has heard the Gospel. I'm not a real deep student of eschatology. I suppose you could say that I'm a Pan-Millenialist - I believe it will all "pan out" in the end. I do believe that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed and will grow and grow until even the birds of the air come to rest in it's branches.

I also have an aversion to the "Hold the fort" mentality, that we need to be afraid of the world, hide, and seperate ourselves so that we are not negatively influenced. Our separation, holiness, is separating ourselves to Jesus and then He sends us into the world to build His Kingdom. As we draw close to Him, He empowers us to do our part in building His Kingdom - whether that is through having a mega-ministry or through sacrificing our life behind bars because of our beliefs (as brothers in Christ are doing now in China and Korea).

Concerning end times, I see the Kingdom of God increasing, and the kingdom of satan increasing simultaneously, but we win, however that plays out!

Another question concerning corinthians 13:8-13 about prophecy ceasing and such. I know that you and many believers in the gifts believe that the part referring to when the perfect comes the imperfect will disappear is referring to christ and the second coming. But I have read that the word perfect in greek is a neuter word and can not refer to Jesus or God and the word perfect appears about 13 other times in the bible and it never refers to Jesus. What is your answer in this case?

It's true that the word "perfect" in the Greek is gender neuter, meaning neither male nor female. And I believe it does refer to "end" as translated in various modern translations. "end" is gender neuter. At the "end" we do expect Christ to return. The New Living Translation interprets this passage as:

"Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! But when the end comes, these special gifts will all disappear. It's like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now. There are three things that will endure--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love."

And one more before I go to sleep. Do you claim that the BHS has to do with recieving spiritual gifts from God. I believe I have already recieved the BHS and it has to do with the change that Jesus makes on your life through the fruits of the holy spirit. Read this excerpt.

2. How do you know that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?

The Charismatic answer:

"'How do I know that the Holy Spirit dwells within me?' Charismatic Renewal offers an answer to this question--the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a powerful experience that convinces the recipient that God is real" (Richard Quebedeaux, The New Charismatics, original edition, page 2).

In other words, "I know that it is true because I have experienced it. I have felt it. It has happened to me!"

The Biblical answer is found in Romans 8:9 -- "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of HIS." If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then he is not His. He does not belong to Christ. He is not a Christian. If I am a saved person, then I have the Holy Spirit. How do I know? I KNOW SO, because God SAYS SO! All who believe on Christ have received the Spirit (John 7:39). Paul said, "The Holy Spirit dwelleth in us" (2 Timothy 1:14) and this is true of every blood-bought child of God. According to God's definition (1 Cor. 6:19; Rom. 8:9; John 7:39; etc.), a Christian is one who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus has received the Spirit. There is no such thing as a person who is justified by faith but who has not received the Spirit.

The fact of the Spirit's reception and indwelling presence is not based on some subjective and questionable experience. It is based upon the plain statements of the Word of God.

I fully agree that one recieves the Holy Spirit when he/she is born of the Spirit, as the scriptures you listed say. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we are born again. In Acts however, it's evident that the BHS is different from receiving the HS at salvation. The disciples were saved, believing Jesus, but were told to wait in Jerusalem until they received power from on High, the BHS, in Acts 2. The Samaritans received Christ under Phillip's ministry and were baptized in water, but subsequently received the BHS under the ministry of Peter and John, Acts 8.

In Acts 19, Paul ministered the BHS to disciples who had not heard of such a thing as the BHS, but were baptized under John's baptism. Now that's an interesting study. They were disciples; does this mean they knew and followed Jesus but had not been around in Jerusalem at Acts 2? Anyhow, so we receive the Spirit at salvation, but the BHS is most often a seperate experience. I say "most often" because we have the example of Cornelius in Acts 10. He and his family received salvation and the BHS at the same time evidenced by speaking in tongues and radical praise!

I believe it's the difference between drinking a glass of living water, and drowning in the ocean. It's the same medium, but a radically different reality. In the one, we very much remain in control; in the other, we loose or submit our control and radically die to self.

How do you know you've received the BHS? It's by faith and by experience just like salvation. We receive salvation by faith, yes, but there is also a change in reality. We go from darkness to light. We understand God as our Father in a real way like never before. It's by faith, but it is also an experience. We go from not knowing that we're saved, to knowing that we're saved, accepted by God because of His grace and love. Hallelujah!

In the same way, the BHS is both received by faith and an experience. When one studies the examples in Acts, one can say that speaking in tongues in normative for the BHS; but one can not say that if one does not speak in tongues he is not BHS. However, I believe that anyone BHS can speak in tongues, as in praying in the Spirit. It's by faith that one speaks in tongues. It's by faith that one prophecies. It's by faith that one speaks to a storm and commands it to dissipate. It's by faith that the righteous shall live!

So BOTH Salvation and the BHS are by faith in the word of God, and by experience - "I know that it is true because I have experienced it. I have felt it. It has happened to me!"

Oh sry one more. If there are other religions(non-christian religions) that can speak in tongues than why on earth should I believe that tongues of today comes from God. I mean there are even some satanic type cults that do it.

Other religions claim there is a god, so does that mean that there is no God? Obviously not. Often times the presence of the false, verifies that there is a true.

I've got to go.

Blessings,

Sherman

[Davve]

Brother Sherman,

I thank you for your kindness and your understanding of my being so protective of what I have with Jesus Christ alone. My time in prayer now is more precious and more confident than ever in my life, and as I said before, so much more productive. I simply wait before my Father and expose my heart before him and then in return he will expose his heart to me and I pray. I require no tongues, the Holy Ghost is there with me as I pray and I know it. He changes me, he brings to me what sin needs addressing, and I come to my Father and we once again experinece the cleansing blood of Jesus my Lord. I have life more abundantly and it is centered in Jesus Christ my Lord as I grow and experinece the true life that he died for me to have.

I get so frustrated with the teachings that want to reduce what I have in relationship; to a system, or a sequence, or rules of engagement, or your missing out if you don't have this. (There I go again)

What I have I believe is what everyone is hungery for and it only comes through Jesus alone. God's word is what has brought to our natural minds that which is truely Spirit, something only God could do, and I am so thankful.

Thank You for understanding. I know Jesus, and I am after noting but him. I will let him direct my heart so I can ernestly desire him because with him comes everything I need now and in eternity.

Brother Dave

[Sherman]

Dave,

Thanks for your encouraging reply. Being quiet before the Lord is powerful, something I wish I had more time to do myself. With four kids its hard for me to find time to do anything by myself sometimes. But this too is a phase of life that I'm thoroughly enjoying. My kids bring me more joy than I can express, even the foolish stuff of being a child. This gives me great hope, because I can feel the Lord just smiling at me most of the time, even in the middle of my foolishness. God is awesome.

Blessings,

Sherman

[matthew4:4]

Hey I know none of us have spoken for awhile but check this out!

There are nine gifts of the Spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. Wisdom, knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

How did a Christian receive these gifts?

Through the laying on of the apostles hands! It is recorded in the 8th chapter of the book of Acts "that Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ unto them" (verse 5). Verse 12 says, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ ,they were baptized, both men and women." According to what we have already learned they received the indwelling of the Spirit but not gifts of the Spirit. (Acts 2:38; 5:32)

When the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word they sent Peter and John that they might pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit. "For as yet He was FALLEN UPON none of them." There is a difference in indwelling and "falling upon." We know from Acts 5:32 that they had already received the indwelling of the Spirit. Verse 17 says, "then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost."

And Simon saw that through laying on of the Apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given. Why didn't Philip lay his hands upon them to impart the Holy Spirit? Evidently only the apostles had this power. Verse 18 says, "and when Simon saw." What did he see? Can you see the Holy Spirit? No! But you can see manifestations of the Spirit, such as speaking in a tongue or prophesying. I would conclude from this that the Samaritans received the indwelling Spirit at baptism and gifts of the Spirit through the laying on of the apostles hands. (Acts 19:1-6)

It makes sense that phillip wasnt able to do this because he didnt have power to. Only apostles. So since they have died and all the people they had laid hands on have died then has is it possible for people to have the gifts today? Please explain. Your brother in Christ, matthew

[Floatingaxe]

Hey I know none of us have spoken for awhile but check this out!

There are nine gifts of the Spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. Wisdom, knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

How did a Christian receive these gifts?

Through the laying on of the apostles hands! It is recorded in the 8th chapter of the book of Acts "that Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ unto them" (verse 5). Verse 12 says, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ ,they were baptized, both men and women." According to what we have already learned they received the indwelling of the Spirit but not gifts of the Spirit. (Acts 2:38; 5:32)

When the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word they sent Peter and John that they might pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit. "For as yet He was FALLEN UPON none of them." There is a difference in indwelling and "falling upon." We know from Acts 5:32 that they had already received the indwelling of the Spirit. Verse 17 says, "then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost."

And Simon saw that through laying on of the Apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given. Why didn't Philip lay his hands upon them to impart the Holy Spirit? Evidently only the apostles had this power. Verse 18 says, "and when Simon saw." What did he see? Can you see the Holy Spirit? No! But you can see manifestations of the Spirit, such as speaking in a tongue or prophesying. I would conclude from this that the Samaritans received the indwelling Spirit at baptism and gifts of the Spirit through the laying on of the apostles hands. (Acts 19:1-6)

It makes sense that phillip wasnt able to do this because he didnt have power to. Only apostles. So since they have died and all the people they had laid hands on have died then has is it possible for people to have the gifts today? Please explain. Your brother in Christ, matthew

You are reading into it too much. Nowhere does it say Philip couldn't impart the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was busy praching salvation and baptizing people inthe Lord Jesus Christ in water. Salvation comes first, after all.

It is entirely possible for us to have the gifts, as we are the Church and the gifts are for the Church. The deaths of the apostles doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is powerless among men. Everyone to whom the gifts are given can now impart them to others. We lay hands on those who are saved to receive the Holy Spirit, and on and on and so it goes from generation to generation.

[Davve]

Dave,

Thanks for your encouraging reply. Being quiet before the Lord is powerful, something I wish I had more time to do myself. With four kids its hard for me to find time to do anything by myself sometimes. But this too is a phase of life that I'm thoroughly enjoying. My kids bring me more joy than I can express, even the foolish stuff of being a child. This gives me great hope, because I can feel the Lord just smiling at me most of the time, even in the middle of my foolishness. God is awesome.

Blessings,

Sherman

As a father of five that are all on their own now, I can say that it pays to be consistant in your persuit of Christ. That may be the wrong way to express it, but I am sure you catch my drift. While others may quit or question, and even though I have had times of confusion and disappointment in my quest to know Jesus and the reality of a true relationship with the father through the Holy Ghost. My children have witnessed a passionate persuit of truth in Christ during their life time of growing up with me and are maturing into young men and women of passion as well.

Although I see the currnet teachings about the Holy Ghost as deceptive and manipulative, I was in them, and I was saved, but not because of them, rather, it was in spite of them, protected (I believe) by a sincere passion to know Jesus, as Paul said, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." And constant exposure, privately, to the Word of God to understand what God himself is saying in context as it is written.

One thing that I call the missing method of interpreting the scriptures is looking at how their faith was lived out, not just what was said, but how was it lived out. In applying that to those lives in the Bible, as well as those who are often considered "Spiritual Leaders" sends one once again wanting only the truth.

God Bless you in your endevours today my brother,

Daave

[Sherman]

Davve,

Thanks for the encouraging word. I agree wholeheartedly concerning being sure to spend time regularly in the word and in prayer even though one's life is busy. I just always wish I could take more time. When I was single, or even newly married I had so many fewer demands on my life that I could spend much more time in prayer and study; I understand why Paul encouraged celibacy, so that one could devote more time to the things of God. That's all I was expressing.

In fact, this summer my boys and I are taking a short-term mission trip to Mexico for three weeks. I am so looking forward to getting away for the buisiness of everyday life and having plenty of extended time to devote to the Lord. And I'm looking forward to see what God does in and through our lives during that time. PTL! If you think of us, I'd appreciate your prayers for us that God would do a powerful thing in and through us -- whatever and everything He wants to do. Hallelujah!!! Lord willing, we'll be going the last 3 weeks in July.

Blessings,

Sherman

[matthew4:4]

Hey I know none of us have spoken for awhile but check this out!

There are nine gifts of the Spirit listed in I Corinthians 12:8-10. Wisdom, knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, and the interpretation of tongues.

How did a Christian receive these gifts?

Through the laying on of the apostles hands! It is recorded in the 8th chapter of the book of Acts "that Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ unto them" (verse 5). Verse 12 says, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ ,they were baptized, both men and women." According to what we have already learned they received the indwelling of the Spirit but not gifts of the Spirit. (Acts 2:38; 5:32)

When the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word they sent Peter and John that they might pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit. "For as yet He was FALLEN UPON none of them." There is a difference in indwelling and "falling upon." We know from Acts 5:32 that they had already received the indwelling of the Spirit. Verse 17 says, "then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost."

And Simon saw that through laying on of the Apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given. Why didn't Philip lay his hands upon them to impart the Holy Spirit? Evidently only the apostles had this power. Verse 18 says, "and when Simon saw." What did he see? Can you see the Holy Spirit? No! But you can see manifestations of the Spirit, such as speaking in a tongue or prophesying. I would conclude from this that the Samaritans received the indwelling Spirit at baptism and gifts of the Spirit through the laying on of the apostles hands. (Acts 19:1-6)

It makes sense that phillip wasnt able to do this because he didnt have power to. Only apostles. So since they have died and all the people they had laid hands on have died then has is it possible for people to have the gifts today? Please explain. Your brother in Christ, matthew

You are reading into it too much. Nowhere does it say Philip couldn't impart the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was busy praching salvation and baptizing people inthe Lord Jesus Christ in water. Salvation comes first, after all.

It is entirely possible for us to have the gifts, as we are the Church and the gifts are for the Church. The deaths of the apostles doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is powerless among men. Everyone to whom the gifts are given can now impart them to others. We lay hands on those who are saved to receive the Holy Spirit, and on and on and so it goes from generation to generation.

He didnt have time. Why wouldnt he just do both things if he could. Peter and John then had to travel all the way to samaria. Look at the other times people recieved the gifts. There are only two special occurences where it wasnt given through the laying of hands. These are the only two times when it happened miraculously. And so if you say you guys at your churches lay the hands on people to give gifts what about all the people who claim to recieve it alone withought the laying on of hands. And I do agree with you that the gifts were for the church but they were given to the church in order to verify things in the new testament. In the old testament God did many great miraculous things in order to prove that what was written was from Him. It seems that you guys believe in these gifts based more on these experiences you've had than what the word actually says. Your brother in Christ, matthew