Sherman Posted March 17, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted March 17, 2007 He didnt have time. Why wouldnt he just do both things if he could. Peter and John then had to travel all the way to samaria. Look at the other times people recieved the gifts. There are only two special occurences where it wasnt given through the laying of hands. These are the only two times when it happened miraculously. And so if you say you guys at your churches lay the hands on people to give gifts what about all the people who claim to recieve it alone withought the laying on of hands. And I do agree with you that the gifts were for the church but they were given to the church in order to verify things in the new testament. In the old testament God did many great miraculous things in order to prove that what was written was from Him. It seems that you guys believe in these gifts based more on these experiences you've had than what the word actually says. Your brother in Christ, matthew Hey Matthew, Good to hear from you. I realize that this was written for Floatingaxe, so please pardon me for butting in. You said that "These are the only two times when it happened miraculously", but every time someone receives the BHS it is miraculous whether through or not through the laying on of hands. Both examples are NT means of receiving the BHS. Concerning why Phillip did not minister the BHS to the Samaritans, I don't know; it doesn't say. I could come up with all kinds of speculations, but they would be just that, speculations. One does not use the lack of information to prove anything except that that information is not provided. And as you mentioned, it's true that God did miracles in the OT to declare His Word, verify His Word, and build His Kingdom. He did miracles in the NT to declare His Word, verify His Word, and build His Kingdom. I would add though that God does the same thing today--miracles to declare His Word, verify His Word, and build His Kingdom. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Concerning why we Pentecostals and Charismatics believe in these gifts, for me and all whom I know it's because of what the Word says as we understand it. Believing is seeing! We believe, so we see. Others do not believe, so they do not see and some refuse to see though they are shown. The Word actually says that this "gift of the Holy Spirit" is for "you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ggjean Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Great post everyone! Wow, it shed lots of light on lots of questions I did not know the answers to. I won't say anything about this post, as I do not have a lot of knowledge about it yet (but will get there in time, one step at a time praise the Lord). All I can say is that I was being cornered in the chatroom the other day about my spiritual gifts and I couldn't answer the person back, which saddened me a lot. And it upset me a little since it came from a mod. Okay, I understand that we do not all share the same enthusiasm about spiritual gifts, but those who have gifts shouldn't be attacked by those who do not believe in gifts of the Spirit. But thanks once again for all the positive and encouraging answers. It helped me a lot. God bless. Gotta go and worship the King of kings in tongues now! Esther I dont understand. If you have the gift of tongues you should atleast be able to explain it to the person and tell them how it is. How can you not know much about it when you use it? You must have learned about it in order to ask for it. Tell me. Do you understand everything you are saying? And you also should know that its not in the scriptures that you need to worship the lord in tongues. There are many ways to worship him. Your brother in christ, matthew Hi Matthew, I am not a tongues advocate, to contrary, I am one who has ceased speaking in tongues. But to answer your question as to how you can have it ( tongues) and not be able to expain it is similar to trying to explain what the Holy Ghost did to you when you realized that you were saved. When we are saved, there is a life that exhists within us that we recognize but cannot easily explain. I love my wife! but to explain that love is not an easy thing, to show that love is a much easier path for me to travel. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know my understanding the difficulty associated with explaining issues of the heart and spirit. I believe the body of Christ would be so much better benifited by an understanding that the Holy Spirit exhalts Christ in our lives and he distributes the his gifts at the time we need them. I think that you and I agree that God can use tongues again if they are needed, but tongues were of no benifit to me and the seeking of them, and seeking their interpretation helped lead me down some usless and time consuming avenues. God Bless you, Daave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew4:4 Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 117 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1986 Share Posted March 19, 2007 (edited) He didnt have time. Why wouldnt he just do both things if he could. Peter and John then had to travel all the way to samaria. Look at the other times people recieved the gifts. There are only two special occurences where it wasnt given through the laying of hands. These are the only two times when it happened miraculously. And so if you say you guys at your churches lay the hands on people to give gifts what about all the people who claim to recieve it alone withought the laying on of hands. And I do agree with you that the gifts were for the church but they were given to the church in order to verify things in the new testament. In the old testament God did many great miraculous things in order to prove that what was written was from Him. It seems that you guys believe in these gifts based more on these experiences you've had than what the word actually says. Your brother in Christ, matthew Hey Matthew, Good to hear from you. I realize that this was written for Floatingaxe, so please pardon me for butting in. You said that "These are the only two times when it happened miraculously", but every time someone receives the BHS it is miraculous whether through or not through the laying on of hands. Both examples are NT means of receiving the BHS. Concerning why Phillip did not minister the BHS to the Samaritans, I don't know; it doesn't say. I could come up with all kinds of speculations, but they would be just that, speculations. One does not use the lack of information to prove anything except that that information is not provided. And as you mentioned, it's true that God did miracles in the OT to declare His Word, verify His Word, and build His Kingdom. He did miracles in the NT to declare His Word, verify His Word, and build His Kingdom. I would add though that God does the same thing today--miracles to declare His Word, verify His Word, and build His Kingdom. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Concerning why we Pentecostals and Charismatics believe in these gifts, for me and all whom I know it's because of what the Word says as we understand it. Believing is seeing! We believe, so we see. Others do not believe, so they do not see and some refuse to see though they are shown. The Word actually says that this "gift of the Holy Spirit" is for "you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles Edited March 19, 2007 by matthew4:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 19, 2007 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. "When that which is perfect has come" refers to the time of completion. Perfected means completed. When Christ returns and the time of the Church is fulfilled, we won't need any of these things. There won't be any need for prophecy, tongues, knowledge, etc., for we will be completed, perfected! We will be with Jesus forever and operating in the capacity for which we were created! The Church is the beneficiary of these gifts at this time because the Church is not yet completed and is still being built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted March 19, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hey Matthew, good to hear from you. Thanks for your reply and I'm glad you brought up the things you mentioned in your reply. Sorry for the long response, it's just that you mentioned several things in your previous post that I felt needed to be addressed. I appreciate your patient endurance. Hey sherman, thanks for the reply. Sorry I didnt express myself correctly. It was always miraculous. I was just trying to say that there are only two incidents where it happened withought the laying on of the hands. And those were two very special times. One being pentecost. I agree that laying on of hands is typically the way people receive the baptism in Spirit. Even the Apostle Paul received the baptism in the Spirit through Ananias. It's in and through the community of faith that believes in the BHS that most people experience the BHS. It's unusual, though it has happened and does happen, that people receive the BHS by themselves or outside of a community of faith that believes in the BHS. That's why it's helpful for those who want the receive the BHS to attend a fellowship of Christians who believe in the BHS (small group or large congregation). And it's especially difficult to receive the BHS if one regularly attends a fellowship that preaches/teaches a steady diet of anti-BHS sermons and lessons. Faith to receive from God comes from hearing and believing truth; whereas fear is the result of hearing and believing lies and erroneous teaching. That's why many people from traditional anti-BHS churches are fearful whenever they are exposed to the gifts of the Spirit in operation; they've been taught and believe erroneous doctrine producing fear. Secondly, there was a very big reason why the miracles were needed to verify the word in those times. Its because the disciples were going around claiming these brand new teachings and extraordinary claims about Jesus being the son of God. I agree that a primary reason for miracles is the verification of the Word of God as being the Word of God; I disagree with the teaching that miracles and other manifestations of the Spirit are not needed today. Christians accept the Bible as the Word of God; but Muslims do not; Buddhists do not; Hindus do not; atheists do not; most non-Christians do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Signs and Wonders verify that the Bible is the Word of God! Signs and wonders thus verify that our claims about Jesus being the Son of God are true. But more than any reasoning on my part, the Word teaches that signs and wonders are for today. Another verse you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthew4:4 Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 117 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/03/1986 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey Matthew, good to hear from you. Thanks for your reply and I'm glad you brought up the things you mentioned in your reply. Sorry for the long response, it's just that you mentioned several things in your previous post that I felt needed to be addressed. I appreciate your patient endurance. Hey sherman, thanks for the reply. Sorry I didnt express myself correctly. It was always miraculous. I was just trying to say that there are only two incidents where it happened withought the laying on of the hands. And those were two very special times. One being pentecost. I agree that laying on of hands is typically the way people receive the baptism in Spirit. Even the Apostle Paul received the baptism in the Spirit through Ananias. It's in and through the community of faith that believes in the BHS that most people experience the BHS. It's unusual, though it has happened and does happen, that people receive the BHS by themselves or outside of a community of faith that believes in the BHS. That's why it's helpful for those who want the receive the BHS to attend a fellowship of Christians who believe in the BHS (small group or large congregation). And it's especially difficult to receive the BHS if one regularly attends a fellowship that preaches/teaches a steady diet of anti-BHS sermons and lessons. Faith to receive from God comes from hearing and believing truth; whereas fear is the result of hearing and believing lies and erroneous teaching. That's why many people from traditional anti-BHS churches are fearful whenever they are exposed to the gifts of the Spirit in operation; they've been taught and believe erroneous doctrine producing fear. Secondly, there was a very big reason why the miracles were needed to verify the word in those times. Its because the disciples were going around claiming these brand new teachings and extraordinary claims about Jesus being the son of God. I agree that a primary reason for miracles is the verification of the Word of God as being the Word of God; I disagree with the teaching that miracles and other manifestations of the Spirit are not needed today. Christians accept the Bible as the Word of God; but Muslims do not; Buddhists do not; Hindus do not; atheists do not; most non-Christians do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Signs and Wonders verify that the Bible is the Word of God! Signs and wonders thus verify that our claims about Jesus being the Son of God are true. But more than any reasoning on my part, the Word teaches that signs and wonders are for today. Another verse you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCruise Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 633 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/12/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/05/1953 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey Matthew, good to hear from you. Thanks for your reply and I'm glad you brought up the things you mentioned in your reply. Sorry for the long response, it's just that you mentioned several things in your previous post that I felt needed to be addressed. I appreciate your patient endurance. Hey sherman, thanks for the reply. Sorry I didnt express myself correctly. It was always miraculous. I was just trying to say that there are only two incidents where it happened withought the laying on of the hands. And those were two very special times. One being pentecost. I agree that laying on of hands is typically the way people receive the baptism in Spirit. Even the Apostle Paul received the baptism in the Spirit through Ananias. It's in and through the community of faith that believes in the BHS that most people experience the BHS. It's unusual, though it has happened and does happen, that people receive the BHS by themselves or outside of a community of faith that believes in the BHS. That's why it's helpful for those who want the receive the BHS to attend a fellowship of Christians who believe in the BHS (small group or large congregation). And it's especially difficult to receive the BHS if one regularly attends a fellowship that preaches/teaches a steady diet of anti-BHS sermons and lessons. Faith to receive from God comes from hearing and believing truth; whereas fear is the result of hearing and believing lies and erroneous teaching. That's why many people from traditional anti-BHS churches are fearful whenever they are exposed to the gifts of the Spirit in operation; they've been taught and believe erroneous doctrine producing fear. Secondly, there was a very big reason why the miracles were needed to verify the word in those times. Its because the disciples were going around claiming these brand new teachings and extraordinary claims about Jesus being the son of God. I agree that a primary reason for miracles is the verification of the Word of God as being the Word of God; I disagree with the teaching that miracles and other manifestations of the Spirit are not needed today. Christians accept the Bible as the Word of God; but Muslims do not; Buddhists do not; Hindus do not; atheists do not; most non-Christians do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Signs and Wonders verify that the Bible is the Word of God! Signs and wonders thus verify that our claims about Jesus being the Son of God are true. But more than any reasoning on my part, the Word teaches that signs and wonders are for today. Another verse you're likely familiar with is Mark 16:15-19 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherman Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 278 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1962 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Good morning Matthew, Well, it's pretty obvious that we're not getting anywhere in our discussion. Concerning .... well, you know, I'd just be repeating things I've posted before. When it comes to "anti-BHS", what I meant by that are denoms that teach that the BHS is not for today like it was in the 1st century church; that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Obviously, I disagree with this and believe the BHS is for today just like it was in NT times. I know men and women that I respect and recognize as prophets and propheteses, as well as apostles, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These men and women are people filled with the love of God, are filled with the Spirit, know the Word, are leaders in their churches, and regularly see miracles happen in and through their ministries. I'm sorry that you don't know any. If you're interested, as I mentioned before, christianinternational.com, Bill Hammon is an internationally known prophet. But if you're looking for someone who is perfect, I don't know anyone. I've enjoyed sharing with you, but I too am weary of the discussion because it seems to be going nowhere and we seem to be only rehashing previous disagreements. So I suppose we'll just have to leave our disagreement unresolved until the Lord breaks through in either of our lives or until we go to be with Him or He comes to take us home. Thank God that our salvation is dependent upon His goodness, grace, and mercy, and not upon our perfect understanding of anything. PTL! I do pray and trust that the Lord will continue to wonderfully bless you and yours! your brother in Christ, Sherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted March 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2007 Bottom Line after all is said & done: With the classic and unflinchingly understandable Acts Chapter 2:8-11 passage on speaking in languages as foundation, all Bible languages are known, national, earthly & understood dialects with nary an instance of speaking in "heavenly gibberish" or "divine mumbo-jumbo" as I've already posted on several occasions for edification of point. Jehovah God well knows and completely understands ALL languages of earth (including Anglais, Francais, Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, et al) quite nicely whether via prayer or via sermon....He CREATED all such (Colossians 1:16)....and that fact surely negates any need for verbal non-language mish-mash. Deus caritas est. N'est-ce pas? AMEN! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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