Does God Believe in Atheism?

[Fovezer]

First of all, there is more than one definition of Religion, I posted 3, and neither speak of a belief in the supernatural being a requirement.  As for the Doctrine of the Atheists well lets just define doctrine shall we;

Doctrine- 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government; 2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine; 3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject

Lets go over this point by point:

1. Atheism doesn't teach anything (No, it doesn't teach that there is no god)

2. It has no teachings.

3. No system of teachings.

Their doctrine, as they pass down to their children is to not believe in a supernatural being, a God.  It doesn't mean there is a need for a meeting location for those that are atheists, but if I remember right there are associations that advocate atheism.

I would never tell my children "You can't believe in a god." If they want to, I'll respect their choice. They will know I am an atheist, but that I will support them.

Here is a search with several atheist sites that promote a banning together of those that believe the way they do.  So you could essentially say they are organized.  Doctrine doesn't have to be in written form...our Bible was passed down for generations before it was actually put in written form.  Here is an atheist web site that does explain what they believe;

So banning together to protect your rights now means its a religion?

Your right though, your Bible was passed down generations before being written down, yet you claim it to be the infallible word of god.

http://www.atheists.org/

" AMERICAN ATHEISTS has been the premier organization laboring for the civil liberties of Atheists, and the total, absolute separation of government and religion. It was born out of a court case begun in 1959 by the Murray family which challenged prayer recitation in the public schools. That case -- Murray v. Curlett -- was a landmark in American jurisprudence on behalf of our First Amendment rights. It began:

"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment." "

This is a generalization, and althought I do fit this to the tee, it is not the atheist bible. And in case you haven't figured it out, because you are using "their" and "they", I am an atheist.

I'm sorry to break this to you but even the non belief of something is a belief.  You choose to believe in something----There is a God ---- There isn't a God --- it is still a belief.

I don't "believe there isn't a God" I "don't believe there is a god" I don't have a belief at all that there is a god. No belief. Period.

As for the Faith issue, you have faith that what you believe is true.  That your set of beliefs are exactly what you believe them to be.  Or are you trying to tell me that all atheists are doubting what they believe and think there is a possibility they are wrong?    That there really is a God!!!! 

Any atheist will admit that there is a possibility they are wrong, unlike religious people. We just have no reason to believe in a god.

Please forgive me for not knowing what all of the acronyms mean (YEC?) here on worthy boards?  That one will need to be explained to me.  I am a born again Christian that came out of a non-denominational church.  I read and asses, compare and deduce from what I have read taking from both sides of a matter.  So as for believing that someone is responsible for their own actions as well as getting at the truth by prayer and study (in the Bible as well as secular sources), I think that God would prefer we not judge someone because of their missguided belief (in either direction).  I love the sinner not their sin, nor what they have come to believe unless it is contrary to the Word of God in which case we have an obligation to show in scripture (in context) their err

YEC= Young Earth Creationist. Belief that the Earth was created 6000 years ago and in a literal interpretaion of Genesis.

Yes, Hogwash, even Darwin couldn't explain how the intricate workings of the eye were formed.  As well as with the evolutionary belief that once something has evolved its original state is no longer in existance.  So if we came from apes/monkeys why are they still here? 

You have just asked one of the dumbest (no offense) questions you can ask an evolutionist. We didn't come from apes/monkeys, but rather a common ancestor, which was probably apelike.

Evolution of the Eye

It doesn't say that God created monkeys/apes and as they evolved man came into being.  I will take God's Word for it.

God also says the earth is flat. Are you sure it is even god true word? Above you said that the Bible was passed down generations before being written down. After all, we are just fallible humans.

Here is the verse that says the earth is flat:

Isaiah 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

A circle is a 2D object.

These are the points of evolution I will even bring up, because I look at it this way, if even one point of it is incorrect then I discount the whole thing.  I see God's word prove itself over and over again and never have I seen anything incorrect in It.

Well, I just proved one thing wrong in the Bible, are you going to discount it?

I don't know where your heart is when it comes to the Lord, and it truely is non of my business, but if your intention is to create strife within the body of Christ then I would suggest you seriously consider your salvation.  Because if you are of Christ then you would not press on a point that is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things.  If you are not a true Christian then you also need to consider your salvation, because there is a true Heaven and a Holy God and you are going to meet Him one day.  Just consider this.  What if you are wrong?  It would make me very sad    if you didn't come to this realization before it was too late.  I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm pleading with you to consider all avenues before you condemn the beliefs of others.  (essentially you are saying we are wrong for not believing in evolution)

Uh-oh, I smell Pascal's Wager. That is a no-no. In case you don't know, Pascal's Wager is basically "If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything." Well, going by that, what if YOU are wrong, and Allah exists? or Thor? or Zues? It is flawed logic. I also don't wish to believe in a god that would banish good people who just don't believe in him to eternal torment over murderers who repent at the last minute. Its horrible and cruel, and makes me sick.

Oh, and you failed to bring up ANY point of evolution that was false.

[Hvnly1Rose]

 

First of all, there is more than one definition of Religion, I posted 3, and neither speak of a belief in the supernatural being a requirement.  As for the Doctrine of the Atheists well lets just define doctrine shall we;

Doctrine- 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government; 2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine; 3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject

Lets go over this point by point:

1. Atheism doesn't teach anything (No, it doesn't teach that there is no god)

2. It has no teachings.

3. No system of teachings.

Their doctrine, as they pass down to their children is to not believe in a supernatural being, a God.  It doesn't mean there is a need for a meeting location for those that are atheists, but if I remember right there are associations that advocate atheism.

I would never tell my children "You can't believe in a god." If they want to, I'll respect their choice. They will know I am an atheist, but that I will support them.

As for teaching your children, you teach by action. You are their mentor in life, their guide. From an early age they watch and then do what you show them to do. Now tell me, do you make sure you tell them about every religion out there so they can make a choice at a ripe young age, or are you going to throw them to the wolves and let them sort it out for themselves? Because they look up to you and have learned that you don't believe in anything, then more than likely they will turn out just like you. That is the easiest path to take. Now, you have TAUGHT them to do that and more than likely you will not ENCOURAGE them to seek out truth for themselves, they will probably be challenged by others to do that. Plus as geared as you are toward Evolution to be truth...then you will also teach them that as truth. So, that is what they will believe. If they do become a Christian, you would have a hard time supporting them because they are going to want you to be part of their lives which will include their beliefs....and truely sad when you aren't. (unless you have been there you don't understand this)

Are you an advocate of atheism~being an atheist?

So banning together to protect your rights now means its a religion?

Your right though, your Bible was passed down generations before being written down, yet you claim it to be the infallible word of god.

No, comming together to protect your rights doesn't make a religion. They come together because of a common belief...I took from that particular web site to show what an atheist believes. If you went to the other sites you will see a promotion or advocacy of atheism. To show you why you call yourself an atheist or agnostic. And this one e-magazine who is there for "Discussing the history, ethics and philosophy of atheism promotes liberty, responsibility and peace of mind." & "For Those Seeking to Initiate or Invigorate Their Awareness of Their Own Freedom from Superstition and Theistic Faith". They want nothing to do with God but they can't stop talking about Him!

Yes, I do claim it to be the infallible word of God. He has proven Himself to me over and over again...I have no reason not to believe it.

This is a generalization, and althought I do fit this to the tee, it is not the atheist bible. And in case you haven't figured it out, because you are using "their" and "they", I am an atheist.

I was trying to keep this general NOT PERSONAL! I don't go after people personally because your belief is not a personal issue to me...only to God.

You said yourself this is a "discussion".

Any atheist will admit that there is a possibility they are wrong, unlike religious people. We just have no reason to believe in a god.

I have known some that won't. And some that just don't care either way.

YEC= Young Earth Creationist. Belief that the Earth was created 6000 years ago and in a literal interpretaion of Genesis.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

You have just asked one of the dumbest (no offense) questions you can ask an evolutionist. We didn't come from apes/monkeys, but rather a common ancestor, which was probably apelike.

Ok, answer this dumb question. Who said that evolution has been proven true, conclusively? That it has gone from a theory to actual proven fact? Or are you going by blind faith that it is true?

God also says the earth is flat. Are you sure it is even god true word? Above you said that the Bible was passed down generations before being written down. After all, we are just fallible humans.

Here is the verse that says the earth is flat:

Isaiah 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

A circle is a 2D object.

There are 23 definitions for circle...the most common is that it is a closed plane, but if you go on you will see that it also says "the area within which something acts, exerts influence, etc; realm; sphere. A sphere is circular, a ball is circular...you cannot tell me that using the translated word "circle" means that it was flat. Unfortunately I am finding conflicting information as to the original ancient Hebrew word used so I can honestly say I will not argue that they didn't have a word that described what we call a sphere. So you have in no way proven anything wrong.

Uh-oh, I smell Pascal's Wager. That is a no-no. In case you don't know, Pascal's Wager is basically "If you believe, and God exists, you gain everything. If you disbelieve, and God exists, you lose everything." Well, going by that, what if YOU are wrong, and Allah exists? or Thor? or Zues? It is flawed logic. I also don't wish to believe in a god that would banish good people who just don't believe in him to eternal torment over murderers who repent at the last minute. Its horrible and cruel, and makes me sick.

Oh, and you failed to bring up ANY point of evolution that was false.

I look at it this way, if I am wrong (and I know that I am not) then I have the same life & death as you. For now I have the Love of a wonderful God, and the knowledge that I am His creation. All He wanted from me in return is to love Him back. As for God banishing people to eternal torment, that is a choice that is made by you...not God...His choice is that you come to Him, because He doesn't want anyone to parish. He gave you free will...and if you choose the latter...that is up to you.

I'm sorry but you failed to prove to me that any of evolution is true! So I guess we are at a stale mate.

[Fovezer]

As for teaching your children, you teach by action.  You are their mentor in life, their guide.  From an early age they watch and then do what you show them to do.  Now tell me, do you make sure you tell them about every religion out there so they can make a choice at a ripe young age, or are you going to throw them to the wolves and let them sort it out for themselves?  Because they look up to you and have learned that you don't believe in anything, then more than likely they will turn out just like you.  That is the easiest path to take.  Now, you have TAUGHT them to do that and more than likely you will not ENCOURAGE them to seek out truth for themselves, they will probably be challenged by others to do that. Plus as geared as you are toward Evolution to be truth...then you will also teach them that as truth.  So, that is what they will believe.  If they do become a Christian, you would have a hard time supporting them because they are going to want you to be part of their lives which will include their beliefs....and truely sad when you aren't. (unless you have been there you don't understand this)

Are you an advocate of atheism~being an atheist?

Yes, at a young age, children do learn from mainly their parents. I am not going to teach them religion at all. When they are old enough to make their own decisions, they will know I'm an atheist, but that if they feel they what to believe it wouldn't bother me.. I will teach them evolution as fact because that is what it is.

And no, I'm not an "advocate of atheism."

No, comming together to protect your rights doesn't make a religion.  They come together because of a common belief...I took from that particular web site to show what an atheist believes.  If you went to the other sites you will see a promotion or advocacy of atheism.  To show you why you call yourself an atheist or agnostic.  And this one e-magazine who is there for "Discussing the history, ethics and philosophy of atheism promotes liberty, responsibility and peace of mind." & "For Those Seeking to Initiate or Invigorate Their Awareness of Their Own Freedom from Superstition and Theistic Faith".  They want nothing to do with God but they can't stop talking about Him!

No, those groups are not talking about God. They are talking about Christianity and how religion should stay out of goverment. Why just Chistianity? Because they are the only ones who will actively go and try and shove their religion down other people's throats. Next time you see a muslim putting his religious documents in a courthouse, then those groups will pursue that. Trust me, its not about your god. It about, in this case, freedom from religion.

Yes, I do claim it to be the infallible word of God.  He has proven Himself to me over and over again...I have no reason not to believe it.

If it is so infallible, why are there so many contridictions in it?

I was trying to keep this general NOT PERSONAL!  I don't go after people personally because your belief is not a personal issue to me...only to God.

You said yourself this is a "discussion".

Yikes!! Sorry. Didn't mean to get personal.

Ok, answer this dumb question.  Who said that evolution has been proven true, conclusively?

The whole scientific community.....and the Pope.

That it has gone from a theory to actual proven fact?

It will never go to "actual proven fact." Gravity is not "actual proven fact." Germs are not "actual proven fact." Relativity is not "actual proven fact." All these are theories and will remain that way because that is how science works. Science works be disproving, not proving. And a scientific theory, which evolution is, is practically fact.

Or are you going by blind faith that it is true?

Nope. I amgoing by scientific evidence.

There are 23 definitions for circle...the most common is that it is a closed plane, but if you go on you will see that it also says "the area within which something acts, exerts influence, etc; realm; sphere.  A sphere is circular, a ball is circular...you cannot tell me that using the translated word "circle" means that it was flat.  Unfortunately I am finding conflicting information as to the original ancient Hebrew word used so I can honestly say I will not argue that they didn't have a word that described what we call a sphere.  So you have in no way proven anything wrong. 

No, a sphere is spherical. A ball is spherical. A circle is far more commonly used to refer to a 2D plane, so that is what I am basing it on.

There are more verses that say the Earth is flat:

Isaiah 11:12 - And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Revelation 7:1 - And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Tell me, how many corners does a sphere have?

I look at it this way, if I am wrong (and I know that I am not) then I have the same life & death as you.  For now I have the Love of a wonderful God, and the knowledge that I am His creation.  All He wanted from me in return is to love Him back.  As for God banishing people to eternal torment, that is a choice that is made by you...not God...His choice is that you come to Him, because He doesn't want anyone to parish.  He gave you free will...and if you choose the latter...that is up to you. 

Wow. I love the smell of arrogance. Anyways, I never chose to go to hell. God did. You say he is the Judge. He will judge me and then send me to hell, because I don't believe. If he doesn't want anyone to parish, he doesn't have to let them. Yet he does. How loving. Also, hell seems like it would have many more nice, caring people in it than heaven anyways.

I'm sorry but you failed to prove to me that any of evolution is true!  So I guess we are at a stale mate.

Uhhhhhh, I never tried. You made the argument that evolution is hogwash, therefore the burden of proof lies on you to prove your point. You haven't.

[Hvnly1Rose]

I have to admit Fovezer, after I went back and read through all of the posts on this thread I do not have the training I need to get into a debate of this magnitude. I also do not have the desire to study just to have you thwart what I have learned. So I will end this debate with you on evolution and our different beliefs on what Atheism is.

I must add this though. You have made sure to let us know that we are being arrogant, or what you believe to be arrogance on our part. Unfortunately, you have shown your arrogance as well. It all comes with pride.

I try to be as humble as I possibly can, but I am sorry, I am only human and quite fallible. I allowed my pride to influence me in interjecting into this debate without being prepared.

I could argue many points from your last post, but I fear it would only be chewed up and spit out without any honest consideration. Also, using the word of God in hopes that you would understand what we as Christains know to be truth is lost on you as the Lord states:

1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You do not have spiritual discernment so you will not except anything we have to share with you about God and His creation at this time. It is a fruitless discussion and I can't continue with it.

Gods blessings and light be poured out on you and yours. And I hope you except our prayers as a token of Gods Love for you.

Take care.

[Arthur Durnan]

And so the self-proclaimed "atheist" rests on his/her god Chance, that inert, blind & mindless god-of-sorts invented by those who prefer to exercise a million times more faith on behalf of their non-beliefs than do Christians.

Has our "atheist" friend extensively patrolled, say, Mars yet in order to discover whether or not God dwells there? Probably not, eh, what? Then how in the name of everything that's logical & rational can he/she possibly assert with a straight face that "there is no God"?! Perhaps the God he/she denies without corroborating evidence has a "summer residence" just to the south of NASA's Opportunity probe? Hmmm.

I truly LOVE these self-proclaimed "atheists". They're so very scrutable.

God bless America!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Fovezer]

And so the self-proclaimed "atheist" rests on his/her god Chance, that inert, blind & mindless god-of-sorts invented by those who prefer to exercise a million times more faith on behalf of their non-beliefs than do Christians.

What are you babbling about?!?! I don't worship "chance." Don't you even read any of these posts, or do you insist on posting this rubbish over and over?

Has our "atheist" friend extensively patrolled, say,  Mars yet in order to discover whether or not God dwells there? Probably not, eh, what? Then how in the name of everything that's logical & rational can he/she possibly assert with a straight face that "there is no God"?! Perhaps the God he/she denies without corroborating evidence has a "summer residence" just to the south of NASA's Opportunity probe? Hmmm. 

More jibberish. I have never said there is no god. I have said, repeatedly, an you have ignored it, repeatedly, that I see no reason or evidence to believe in any diety. Saying there is definately no god is just as arrogant as saying there is definately a god. This same quote can be directed at you, also:

Has our "Christian" friend extensively patrolled, say, Mars yet in order to discover whether or not God dwells there? Probably not, eh, what? Then how in the name of everything that's logical & rational can he/she possibly assert with a straight face that "there is a God"?! Perhaps the God he/she accepts without corroborating evidence doesn't exist? Hmmm.

I truly LOVE these self-proclaimed "atheists". They're so very scrutable.

I love these completely idiotic posts.

Please answer this, why do you keep putting "atheist" in quotations?

[mobile21]

Atheism is a long lost cause because you can't prove a negative fact, just positive facts, for example:

If I say that you shot JFK, you can't prove you didn't do it, however, you can prove that you did something else like you being in Hawaii on vacation by the time he was shot, so you didn't prove you didn't do it, what you proved is that you did something else instead (a positive fact).

That's why atheism is such a long lost cause.

[Fovezer]

Atheism is a long lost cause because you can't prove a negative fact, just positive facts, for example:

If I say that you shot JFK, you can't prove you didn't do it, however, you can prove that you did something else like you being in Hawaii on vacation by the time he was shot, so you didn't prove you didn't do it, what you proved is that you did something else instead (a positive fact).

That's why atheism is such a long lost cause.

*sigh*

You are right, you can't prove a negative. Atheism is not a negative. I don't say "there is no god." I say "I lack the belief in a god." Big difference. The first one is a positive statement, the second one is neither. Your point is null. Saying definitaly there is or isn't a god is very foolish and rather arrogant.

That is why the burden of proof lies on the affirmative, or the one that claims there is/isn't a god. So, since you cannot prove there is a god, you would have to agree that Christianity is therefore a "long lost cause" also, correct? I know its not a negative, but the reasoning is the same.

[mobile21]

Atheism is a long lost cause because you can't prove a negative fact, just positive facts, for example:

If I say that you shot JFK, you can't prove you didn't do it, however, you can prove that you did something else like you being in Hawaii on vacation by the time he was shot, so you didn't prove you didn't do it, what you proved is that you did something else instead (a positive fact).

That's why atheism is such a long lost cause.

*sigh*

You are right, you can't prove a negative. Atheism is not a negative. I don't say "there is no god." I say "I lack the belief in a god." Big difference. The first one is a positive statement, the second one is neither. Your point is null. Saying definitaly there is or isn't a god is very foolish and rather arrogant.

That is why the burden of proof lies on the affirmative, or the one that claims there is/isn't a god. So, since you cannot prove there is a god, you would have to agree that Christianity is therefore a "long lost cause" also, correct? I know its not a negative, but the reasoning is the same.

But there is proof. Only christianity has genuine, documented miracles, that's why christianity has survived 2000 years of history despite the odds, because it actually works and God does make the lives of christians better.

Anyway, why do you show that much interest in debating this issue Fovezer if you are not willing to believe in any of this, ever ?. Since we are 100% sure of the presence of God in our lives and you are 100% sure God doesn't exist, I don't see any point to this...

[Fovezer]

But there is proof. Only christianity has genuine, documented miracles, that's why christianity has survived 2000 years of history despite the odds, because it actually works and God does make the lives of christians better.

There is? Please, show it. Islam, Hinduism, Baha'i, and all the other religions claim to have miracles, does this make them right? Judiasm has survived longer than Christianity, so isn't it the correct religion? All the others religions also claim that their diety makes their lives better. Your arguement for Christianity is very poor at best.

Anyway, why do you show that much interest in debating this issue Fovezer if you are not willing to believe in any of this, ever ?. Since we are 100% sure of the presence of God in our lives and you are 100% sure God doesn't exist, I don't see any point to this...

I enjoy religious debates, that is why.

Can you read at all? Or have you read an of my previous posts were I have explicitally said many time that I am not 100% sure god doesn't exist? I am not as arrogent as you.