mobile21 Posted February 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2004 There is? Please, show it. Islam, Hinduism, Baha'i, and all the other religions claim to have miracles, does this make them right? They don't have documented miracles the way christianity does. An important thing is that in christianity many testimonies of the miracles come from non-believers. I remember right now a miracle that happened to St. Benedict: he was someone very famous for his sanctity so when the abbot of a nearby religious community died, the monks asked him to be their new abbot. He refused many times but the monks kept insisting and begging him so he finally accepted. Anyway, because he established harder, tougher rules about how the monks should live, they started to hate him and one day they were so fed up of St. Benedict that they decided to kill him: they poisoned his wine but when they were about to dinner, St. Benedict said the usual blessing of the food and at this very moment the poisoned cup of wine exploded. All the monks involved in the conspiracy to kill him confessed and obviously acknowledged it as a miracle. It's clear that for St. Benedict, God did make a difference in his life but this was not out of the blue because he had dedicated his life to serve God. This is just a reminder that God can directly intervene in our lives as much as we want to but we have to ask for it. Judiasm has survived longer than Christianity, so isn't it the correct religion? There are older religions but because christianity is God's full revelation, it keeps being renewed by the grace of the Holy Spirit unlike any other religion. All the others religions also claim that their diety makes their lives better. Your arguement for Christianity is very poor at best. The thing is this is not an argument, this is my testimony of God's presence in my life. For me it is not "a poor argument" because it is the reality I have lived. I'd be lying if I would say that I have never seen God's true intervention in my life. I enjoy religious debates, that is why. Can you read at all? Or have you read an of my previous posts were I have explicitally said many time that I am not 100% sure god doesn't exist? I am not as arrogent as you. I never read one of those messages where you said you are not 100% sure God doesn't exist, I just logically assumed it because you defend the "atheist position" just like I assume those who are against it believe 100% percent in God and not in some chance of "God existing". Anyway, I think you are the arrogant here because you want others to prove to you that God exists when others can't do that for you, they can just offer (their own or other's) testimony about Him. Only you can prove for yourself if God exists or not. Have you ever prayed a rosary on your knees and asked God to restore or increase your faith in Him?. No one ever said that God would just prove Himself to you "just because", you have to show your willingness to Him by sacrificing and dedicating Him some of your time. If you have never done it then that's like wanting to learn "how to paint" and never being willing to take a brush and a canvas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted February 9, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2004 They don't have documented miracles the way christianity does. An important thing is that in christianity many testimonies of the miracles come from non-believers. I remember right now a miracle that happened to St. Benedict: he was someone very famous for his sanctity so when the abbot of a nearby religious community died, the monks asked him to be their new abbot. He refused many times but the monks kept insisting and begging him so he finally accepted. Anyway, because he established harder, tougher rules about how the monks should live, they started to hate him and one day they were so fed up of St. Benedict that they decided to kill him: they poisoned his wine but when they were about to dinner, St. Benedict said the usual blessing of the food and at this very moment the poisoned cup of wine exploded. All the monks involved in the conspiracy to kill him confessed and obviously acknowledged it as a miracle. It's clear that for St. Benedict, God did make a difference in his life but this was not out of the blue because he had dedicated his life to serve God. This is just a reminder that God can directly intervene in our lives as much as we want to but we have to ask for it. So, because you don't know what really happened, you claim it is the work of god? Wow. There are older religions but because christianity is God's full revelation, it keeps being renewed by the grace of the Holy Spirit unlike any other religion. Your opinion, just like all the other religions of the world. The thing is this is not an argument, this is my testimony of God's presence in my life. For me it is not "a poor argument" because it is the reality I have lived. I'd be lying if I would say that I have never seen God's true intervention in my life. And I would be lying if I said I did. I never read one of those messages where you said you are not 100% sure God doesn't exist, I just logically assumed it because you defend the "atheist position" just like I assume those who are against it believe 100% percent in God and not in some chance of "God existing". I have say almost ever time that I do not "not believe there is a God", but that I "lack the belief in God". Big difference. Anyway, I think you are the arrogant here because you want others to prove to you that God exists when others can't do that for you, they can just offer (their own or other's) testimony about Him. Only you can prove for yourself if God exists or not. Well, when people claim their is evidence for god, I'd like to see them prove it, after all, you do claim the affirmative. Have you ever prayed a rosary on your knees and asked God to restore or increase your faith in Him?. No..... No one ever said that God would just prove Himself to you "just because", you have to show your willingness to Him by sacrificing and dedicating Him some of your time. If you have never done it then that's like wanting to learn "how to paint" and never being willing to take a brush and a canvas. I have said I was at one point a Christian. I did that "sacrificing and dedicating" thing, but all that has been proven to me was that there was no real reason to believe in a diety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eve Posted February 10, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 203 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2004 I'd just like to share something simple with everyone: To dig deep into Job Chap 38, 39, 40 and 41 wherein God "boasts" about His creation! I love to watch ANIMAL PLANET and I have a pet dog and a kitten. When I watch all kinds of animals especially and study them, would y'all understand what I mean when I say that I see God in the faces of these animals? They are all beautiful, cute, intelligent, instinctive and emotional and I'm afraid they move me. And looking at the world around us - green trees, flowers, blue skies, starry nights, lightnings, typhoons, snow....yes, "something powerful" is out there. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted February 10, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I'd just like to share something simple with everyone: To dig deep into Job Chap 38, 39, 40 and 41 wherein God "boasts" about His creation! I love to watch ANIMAL PLANET and I have a pet dog and a kitten. When I watch all kinds of animals especially and study them, would y'all understand what I mean when I say that I see God in the faces of these animals? They are all beautiful, cute, intelligent, instinctive and emotional and I'm afraid they move me. And looking at the world around us - green trees, flowers, blue skies, starry nights, lightnings, typhoons, snow....yes, "something powerful" is out there. God bless. I'm with you Eve. Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted February 10, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2004 I'd just like to share something simple with everyone: To dig deep into Job Chap 38, 39, 40 and 41 wherein God "boasts" about His creation! I love to watch ANIMAL PLANET and I have a pet dog and a kitten. When I watch all kinds of animals especially and study them, would y'all understand what I mean when I say that I see God in the faces of these animals? They are all beautiful, cute, intelligent, instinctive and emotional and I'm afraid they move me. And looking at the world around us - green trees, flowers, blue skies, starry nights, lightnings, typhoons, snow....yes, "something powerful" is out there. God bless. When I look at those things, I see Mother Nature at its best and its worst, also. I just don't believe a diety did it. We are all animals and I accept that we got here by purely natural ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scaramallion Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Perhaps two quotes from alt.atheism are in order. "Atheism is not a religion, it is not a faith, it is not a philosophy, it does not have a source. It is a binary feature, set to 0. Nothing else." - Incenjucar "If atheism is a religion then abstinence is a form of sex." - Karl Johanson Atheism comes in three notable flavours - though many, many atheists cannot be pigeonholed so easily - strong atheism, weak atheism and what I like to call default atheism. Strong Atheism Even though this is still disputed amonst atheists themselves, I tend to differentiate is as the declaration that "there is no god". It is a positive claim, and strong atheists that can be defined in this way do bear a burdon of proof. Ultimately, I find strong atheism to be unfounded, for the simple reason that you cannot disprove a universal negative. Different definitions on strong atheism overlap with what I choose do define as: Weak Atheism Here is where I give a different definition of weak atheism, since I define it as the statement "there is no god X." You may think this no different to strong atheism, but there is an important difference, weak atheism claims that 'this specific god' does not exist. Using this definition, all of you are weak atheists. You do not believe in Thor, for example. In fact, you do not believe in any of the thousands of other gods except your own. I usually hold both this and the following definition of weak atheism in a battle of cognitive dissonance - one day I will settle on which is my preference. Others giving a definition of weak atheism tend to say that they are justified in saying that the existence of god, or god X has not been shown. If you find this claim to be unjustifiable then ask yourself why you do not believe in Thor. Must the burdon of proof in showing Thor does not exist be upon you? No, it is far more reasonable to claim unbelief - that you will remain an atheist until the god is proven. This wanders somewhat into the territory of: Default Atheists This is what I - indeed all of you - was once in my life, long ago while I was a child. Default atheism is the position that all children take, they are atheists simply because nobody has told them about religion and gods. Other definitions of the various types of atheism can be found on the Secular Web, here though I am partial to this introduction to atheism. I am also partial to this article by Richard Carrier which should answer most of the common questions I have already seen in this thread. I think it would be more constructive of you to listen to what Fovezer has to say about his own personal beliefs - or lack thereof - rather than trying to force your square peg into his round hole, and vice versa. [Edit to change a statement that was overly ambiguous - S] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted February 11, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2004 Perhaps two quotes from alt.atheism are in order. "Atheism is not a religion, it is not a faith, it is not a philosophy, it does not have a source. It is a binary feature, set to 0. Nothing else." - Incenjucar "If atheism is a religion then abstinence is a form of sex." - Karl Johanson Atheism comes in three notable flavours - though many, many atheists cannot be pigeonholed so easily - strong atheism, weak atheism and what I like to call default atheism. Strong Atheism Even though this is still disputed amonst atheists themselves, I tend to differentiate is as the declaration that "there is no god". It is a positive claim, and strong atheists that can be defined in this way do bear a burdon of proof. Ultimately, I find strong atheism to be unfounded, for the simple reason that you cannot disprove a universal negative. Different definitions on strong atheism overlap with what I choose do define as: Weak Atheism Here is where I give a different definition of weak atheism, since I define it as the statement "there is no god X." You may think this no different to strong atheism, but there is an important difference, weak atheism claims that 'this specific god' does not exist. Using this definition, all of you are weak atheists. You do not believe in Thor, for example. In fact, you do not believe in any of the thousands of other gods except your own. I usually hold both this and the following definition of weak atheism in a battle of cognitive dissonance - one day I will settle on which is my preference. Others giving a definition of weak atheism tend to say that they are justified in saying that the existence of god, or god X has not been shown. If you find this claim to be unjustifiable then ask yourself why you do not believe in Thor. Must the burdon of proof in showing Thor does not exist be upon you? No, it is far more reasonable to claim unbelief - that you will remain an atheist until the god is proven. This wanders somewhat into the territory of: Default Atheists This is what I - indeed all of you - was once in my life, long ago while I was a child. Default atheism is the position that all children take, they are atheists simply because nobody has told them about religion and gods. Other definitions of the various types of atheism can be found on the Secular Web, here though I am partial to this introduction to atheism. I am also partial to this article by Richard Carrier which should answer most of the common questions I have already seen in this thread. I think it would be more constructive of you to listen to what Fovezer has to say about his own personal beliefs - or lack thereof - rather than trying to force your square peg into his round hole, and vice versa. [Edit to change a statement that was overly ambiguous - S] Bravo! Beautiful! Another good quote: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Another good quote: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts Well, unfortunately, that quote shows a lack of understanding of what Christians are really Christians for. I am guessing your exposure to Christianity is in these debates? If so, that really is not the heart of Christianity, nor of what the Bible teaches. I believe in Jesus because He has made Himself real to me. If not, I would have rejected Christianity a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fovezer Posted February 11, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/27/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2004 Another good quote: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts Well, unfortunately, that quote shows a lack of understanding of what Christians are really Christians for. I am guessing your exposure to Christianity is in these debates? If so, that really is not the heart of Christianity, nor of what the Bible teaches. I believe in Jesus because He has made Himself real to me. If not, I would have rejected Christianity a long time ago. That quote was not really intended strictly for Christians, because he doesn't say which god. This can apply to all religions. I think it is a good quote, especiall the second part. I am exposed to Christianity elsewhere, but those Christians are not nearly as fundementalist as they are here (no offense to you), and I understand what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile21 Posted February 11, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 711 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2004 I enjoy religious debates, that is why. Wait a sec, so far you have engaged in ZERO religious debate. The only thing you've done is to ask: "can you prove me God?" which is the wrong question to ask to begin with because the God of christianity has only a physical identity for a very specific purpose and you won't see Him until the Final Judgement so, that question would only be valid for a religion that accepts that: 1) a deity can have a physical existence 2) that deity can appear for whatever reasons Asking the question you ask it's like if I go to a board about hinduism and ask: can you explain me monotheism?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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