Sabbath on saturday or sunday?

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

Excellent points of rebuttal to SW's arguments:

The Law and Jesus

The Rabbis say that when the Messiah comes, He will explain what Moses meant. Not that the Rabbis don't have their own ideas, but they realize that there is a depth to the Torah that they don't understand. And this is exactly what Yeshua does in Matthew 5, right after He tells them that He has not come to do away with the Law:

Matt. 5:17: 'Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.'

If fulfill means, 'to do away with' then we have Yeshua saying one thing ('Do not think that I came to abolish the Law...'), while immediately contradicting Himself (I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.') '...to fulfill,' obviously, can't mean, 'to do away with.' Yet, this is how the Church interprets this Word of Yeshua.

Yeshua, in His message on the Mount, begins to reveal the essence of the Law, by saying things like, 'You have heard it said of old that one must not murder. But I say to you that if you hate your brother in your heart that you have already murdered him.'8

Yeshua was clarifying and amplifying the Commandment (Law), not to murder, by showing Israel what the essence of the Commandment is. He didn't throw out the Commandment not to murder, by telling us the essence of the Commandment, not to hate. But what He did do, was to sweep away any thoughts that one could keep that Commandment, even if one had not literally murdered anyone. Verbal abuse is seen by Yeshua as 'murder' also.

The Church proclaims that, 'no one can keep the Law' and that they are 'under grace' with Jesus. But which is harder? To not literally murder someone (the Law), or to not have hate in one's heart (Grace)? The Law of Jesus is much greater or harder than Moses' if I can use that concept. I say 'if' because actually, they are one and the same. Yeshua is just showing us what was in the Law all along. This is why we need His Grace. We need His Grace to be able to walk out the Law of Love. When I hate someone, the Spirit convicts me and I ask for forgiveness and the ability (Grace), to love that person. This is the Law and how Grace works. Grace doesn't give us license either to murder someone, or to hate them.

If the Church had not buried the Law of Yahveh in their perverse theology, the Jewish People would have seen a Messiah, for the last 1900 years, who did not eat pig, who observed the Sabbath Day as holy unto Yahveh, and kept all the Feast Days, etc. The people of the Church would have been walking that out. They would have been a living example that the Messiah of Israel had come in Yeshua, and not the opposite; that Jesus and especially Paul, not only 'did away with Moses' but that Christians could murder Jews with impunity from Jesus (as has been the history of the Church toward the Jewish People). The Holocaust, the Inquisition, all the pogroms, etc., were theologically motivated against 'the Christ killers.'

If the Church had understood that it too was part of Israel, it would have befriended the Jewish People. Instead, it murdered members of its own family, because they hadn't come to believe in Yeshua yet. This has not been a godly witness to the Jewish People for the last 1900 years. More Jews have been murdered, 'in the Name of Jesus' than all other names combined. Evil has triumphed in the Church toward the Jewish People in this, and in the Church presenting a Jesus to the Jewish People that is both anti-Semitic and anti-Law.

[Eddie B]

Shalom,

Excellent points of rebuttal to SW's arguments:

The Law and Jesus

The Rabbis say that when the Messiah comes, He will explain what Moses meant. Not that the Rabbis don't have their own ideas, but they realize that there is a depth to the Torah that they don't understand. And this is exactly what Yeshua does in Matthew 5, right after He tells them that He has not come to do away with the Law:

Matt. 5:17: 'Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.'

If fulfill means, 'to do away with' then we have Yeshua saying one thing ('Do not think that I came to abolish the Law...'), while immediately contradicting Himself (I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.') '...to fulfill,' obviously, can't mean, 'to do away with.' Yet, this is how the Church interprets this Word of Yeshua.

Yeshua, in His message on the Mount, begins to reveal the essence of the Law, by saying things like, 'You have heard it said of old that one must not murder. But I say to you that if you hate your brother in your heart that you have already murdered him.'8

Yeshua was clarifying and amplifying the Commandment (Law), not to murder, by showing Israel what the essence of the Commandment is. He didn't throw out the Commandment not to murder, by telling us the essence of the Commandment, not to hate. But what He did do, was to sweep away any thoughts that one could keep that Commandment, even if one had not literally murdered anyone. Verbal abuse is seen by Yeshua as 'murder' also.

The Church proclaims that, 'no one can keep the Law' and that they are 'under grace' with Jesus. But which is harder? To not literally murder someone (the Law), or to not have hate in one's heart (Grace)? The Law of Jesus is much greater or harder than Moses' if I can use that concept. I say 'if' because actually, they are one and the same. Yeshua is just showing us what was in the Law all along. This is why we need His Grace. We need His Grace to be able to walk out the Law of Love. When I hate someone, the Spirit convicts me and I ask for forgiveness and the ability (Grace), to love that person. This is the Law and how Grace works. Grace doesn't give us license either to murder someone, or to hate them.

If the Church had not buried the Law of Yahveh in their perverse theology, the Jewish People would have seen a Messiah, for the last 1900 years, who did not eat pig, who observed the Sabbath Day as holy unto Yahveh, and kept all the Feast Days, etc. The people of the Church would have been walking that out. They would have been a living example that the Messiah of Israel had come in Yeshua, and not the opposite; that Jesus and especially Paul, not only 'did away with Moses' but that Christians could murder Jews with impunity from Jesus (as has been the history of the Church toward the Jewish People). The Holocaust, the Inquisition, all the pogroms, etc., were theologically motivated against 'the Christ killers.'

If the Church had understood that it too was part of Israel, it would have befriended the Jewish People. Instead, it murdered members of its own family, because they hadn't come to believe in Yeshua yet. This has not been a godly witness to the Jewish People for the last 1900 years. More Jews have been murdered, 'in the Name of Jesus' than all other names combined. Evil has triumphed in the Church toward the Jewish People in this, and in the Church presenting a Jesus to the Jewish People that is both anti-Semitic and anti-Law.

Hi Vickilynn,

Looks like your a little upset, sorry to see that. Where you are at in you theology theirs no simply answer to what you believe

the bible to say.But when you say Church, remember theirs a false Chrisianity in the world(of which i believe your speaking of and then theirs the true elect of God)remember Yeshua said in his parables that in the Church age we whould see this happen.The New covenant (the fulfiling of the Law in Yeshua) and His teachings, fulfill and defines what pertains to His Old covenant.I hope this helps a little bit.I love Jews because if for no other reason my savior is a Jew.And the Church i was part of in the past we had two jewish ladies in our church who were a part of Jews for Jesus and they whould once a mounth celebreate the passover(and if you wanted to be a part of it you could, (but it was meant to reach Jewish people) showing how Jesus was in all that symbolisim that has been fulfilled in Him.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Why, then, did Jesus keep the Sabbath? He kept the sabbath for the same reason He kept all the other Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Ga 4:4; Ro 9:5)

[Vickilynn]

Hi Vickilynn,

Looks like your a little upset, sorry to see that.

Shalom Eddie,

I know you are new here, but you've made a false assumption and false judgment. Please don't do that.

You don't know me and you certainly aren't equipped to judge whether I'm upset or not. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling, it is not a very Christian thing to do. You CAN ask if you are interested, but please don't assume.

For the record, I'm not upset at all. At least I wasn't until you made that false assumption and accusation without knowing me at all.

[Eddie B]

Hi Vickilynn,

Looks like your a little upset, sorry to see that.

Shalom Eddie,

I know you are new here, but you've made a flase assumption and false judgment. Please don't do that.

You don't know me and you certainly aren't equipped to judge whether I'm upset or not. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling, it is not a very Christian thing to do. You CAN ask if you are interested, but don't assume.

For the record, I'm not upset at all. At least I wasn't until you made that false assumption and accusation without knowing me at all.

Hi Vickilynn,

Sorry about that, i stand corrected.

[Vickilynn]

Hi Vickilynn,

Where you are at in you theology theirs no simply answer to what you believe the bible to say.But when you say Church,

Shalom Eddie,

Where I'm at in my theology? What does that mean? I'm not the one asking the question in this thread. I'm giving the Biblical answer.

For the record, I have been studying this issue for 30 years and I believe what the Bible says about it and what I posted.

What about you?

remember theirs a false Chrisianity in the world(of which i believe your speaking of and then theirs the true elect of God)remember Yeshua said in his parables that in the Church age we whould see this happen.The New covenant (the fulfiling of the Law in Yeshua) and His teachings, fulfill and defines what pertains to His Old covenant.I hope this helps a little bit.

Again, you assume that I am confused about the question. Another false assumption brother. I am convinced of what the Bible says about it, and it is reflected in the article I posted above. The "elect of G-d" and who you believe that to be has no bearing on the Sabbath day. May we please stay on topic?

I love Jews because if for no other reason my savior is a Jew.

What about that the Bible says to pray for the Jews and to witness to them? What about that they will help usher in His return?

And the Church i was part of in the past we had two jewish ladies in our church who were a part of Jews for Jesus and they whould once a mounth celebreate the passover(and if you wanted to be a part of it you could, (but it was meant to reach Jewish people) showing how Jesus was in all that symbolisim that has been fulfilled in Him.

Yes. But as the article I posted above points out so eloquently, "fulfilled" does not mean done away with. Jesus is the Sacrifice Lamb in the Passover and we are to KEEP the Passover (all the Church) in Jesus.

Why, then, did Jesus keep the Sabbath? He kept the sabbath for the same reason He kept all the other Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Ga 4:4; Ro 9:5)

Part of that is true. Another part is that Jesus walked out G-d's Word and served as our example to do the same in Him.

Please read the article above, it is very good and hopefully will open your eyes a bit.

[Vickilynn]

Hi Vickilynn,

Looks like your a little upset, sorry to see that.

Shalom Eddie,

I know you are new here, but you've made a flase assumption and false judgment. Please don't do that.

You don't know me and you certainly aren't equipped to judge whether I'm upset or not. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling, it is not a very Christian thing to do. You CAN ask if you are interested, but don't assume.

For the record, I'm not upset at all. At least I wasn't until you made that false assumption and accusation without knowing me at all.

Hi Vickilynn,

Sorry about that, i stand corrected.

Shalom Eddie,

Thank you. Forgiven!

[st. Worm]

The New Testament specifically tells us that we have been freed from the Sabbath command. Paul told the Colossians, " He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. ...Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day" (Colossians 2:13-16).

Now for those who wish to continue to follow the Old Testament laws in all their forms as given to Israel, then have you also followed all of the penalties for not perfectly keeping the Sabbath which I am sure you have not done?

sw

Shalom SW,

No, the Bible has not "freed" us from G-d's Word. The Ten Commandments still stand, all 10 of them.

Jesus did not come to "abolish" the Law or the Prophets. And not "all" has been accomplished. Heaven and Earth have not passed away, so the Law still stands.

Matthew 5

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you,until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

As for "keeping the Sabbath perfectly" what specifically do you accuse that we have not done? And how do you know?

As I said, if all of the OT testaments laws given to Israel are still applicable for you today do you also subscribe to the penalties? Do you seriously believe you have kept the Sabbath perfectly? What about all of the other OT provisions? Pulleeze!

Also your argument is with the Apostle and the God who inspired him and not me.

sw

Shalom,

Pulleeeze! How ridiculous. I love it when people use this as a cop-out when they have no Scriptural fact to reply:

"Also your argument is with the Apostle and the God who inspired him and not me."

Right.

Sorry, but YOUR argument is with Jesus, in the verses I posted above since HE said in His own Words that He did not come to abolish the Law. So, take it up with Him and not me.

Not all the Laws of the OT are applicable for today, but the Sabbath is. So your "penalty" argument is actually a Straw Man. Focus on the Sabbath.

No cop out here sweetie. Why don't you answer my questions now? So do you keep all of the Old Testament laws? If not then why not? If one is applicable to Christians then all are. You still have not answered if you keep the Sabbath perfectly and without fail. I don't think you have. Are you ready to accept the penalty for not doing so?

Please stop kidding around and answer some questions for a change.

And you really believe that the purpose of Jesus was to be our example?

sw

[Vickilynn]

No cop out here sweetie.

Shalom SW,

Of course it's a cop-out darling.

Why don't you answer my questions now? So do you keep all of the Old Testament laws?

I already did. Would you please read my replies?

We are talking about the Sabbath SW. Please stay on topic.

No, I don't follow all the OT laws.

If not then why not?

Again, I already answered this. Because they don't all apply anymore. Some do and some don't. The Sabbath day is part of the 10 Commandments which DO still apply. Please stay on topic.

If one is applicable to Christians then all are.

Actually, that is not at all true. That is a misconception. That is not correct hermeneutics. The Bible must be interpreted as to the time, person, context etc. Not all the OT laws still apply, but the Sabbath does. Please focus on the Sabbath.

You still have not answered if you keep the Sabbath perfectly and without fail. I don't think you have.

Well, then you would be wrong. When you come to my home and observe what we do for the Sabbath, THEN you can make that judgment. Until then, you are making false assumptions based on ignorance.

Are you ready to accept the penalty for not doing so?

There are no penalties. You are confused and mistaken.

Please stop kidding around and answer some questions for a change.

I answer all questions put to me. And who is kidding! I'm serious.

Will you please stop making false accusations and bringing in Straw Man arguments and stay on topic?

And you really believe that the purpose of Jesus was to be our example?

Ummm, go back and read EXACTLY what I wrote SW. That's not it. And I do believe what I wrote, or I wouldn't have written it.

[CaritateDei]

Remember, that the U.S. of A. is one of only a few countries in the world that begin the week with Sunday. Most begin it with Monday, ending it with Sunday.

It could be a cultural thing...

[Vickilynn]

Remember, that the U.S. of A. is one of only a few countries in the world that begin the week with Sunday. Most begin it with Monday, ending it with Sunday.

It could be a cultural thing...

Shalom,

But we are talking about a BIBLICAL thing. The Sabbath has always been on the 7th day of the week in the Scriptures.

The BIBLE is our source and our authority, not culture.