Democrats want to raise the minimum wage

[forrestkc]

Let me address your last point first. It is an economic issue, not a moral issue. When you work, you exchange your time for your employers money; there is no moral component in that exchange. If a person feels they are underpaid, the can leave and find another job. Having said that, it is a wise employer indeed who has figured out that a happy employee is a productive employee, but the government should never be raised to the level of a moral arbiter. Do you seriously want the government to impose their morals on society?

Your first point is baffling. Of course, there are quack doctors so it figures there are quack economists as well. There is a ton of evidence that points out the fact the the minumum wage is most definitely a job killer. Just Google it; I did and got dozens of reputable sites with graphs, history, etc.

Nobody is predicting the end of America if the minimum wage is raised; our economy has survived hurricanes and Democrats, so it will survive a hike in the minumum wage.

Yes, there are plenty of ideological sites that claim the minumum wage destroys jobs. However, the problem you are going to have is finding a non-partisan think tank that makes the same claim.

For example, the Economic Policy Institute has the signatures of hundreds of economists who believe its time to raise it:

www.epi.org/minwage/epi_minimum_wage_2006.pdf+brookings+institute+minimum+wage&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

The fact is, there is simply no correlation between past increases in the minimum wage and increases in unemployment, reduction in GDP growth, or increased inflation. For example, the minimum wage increased 3 times in the 90s, and unemployment was at record low levels, inflation was moderated, GDP growth was much higher than the last 6 years have been or than it was in the 70s or 80s, and some 22 million jobs were created. Minimum wage increases are simply to small of a variable to be registered at the macro level. It has neither a positive nor a negative effect on employment or economic growth. It is simply an ideological issue. Conservatives and libertarians have an ideological objection to a minimum wage. Thus their thinktanks go out and pluck out data that would seem to support there assertions and ignore data that does not.

Finally, it is a moral issue. For example, we banned child labor in this country because it was a moral issue. Society decided that it was morally wrong to have children working in sweatshops. We instituted a minimum wage in this country because society decided that it from a moral perspective, a worker should be paid a minimum amount of money for his efforts in this country. 70 to 80 percent of Americans support increasing the minimum wage because it is simply the right thing to do.

[Gerioke]

Perhaps it would be beneficial for low income earners if the government were to step in and put a cap on necessities such as milk, fruits & vegetables, heating fuel and so on.

[forrestkc]

Perhaps it would be beneficial for low income earners if the government were to step in and put a cap on necessities such as milk, fruits & vegetables, heating fuel and so on.

That is an apples to oranges comparison. There is plenty of empiracle evidence to support the notion that price controls are harmful to production. Although, on the flip side of it, because of Agricultural Subsidies, Farmers operate in what amounts to a socialistic economy. There is not a farming state in the nation that pays in more in taxes than it recieves in subsidies.

[Gerioke]

Perhaps it would be beneficial for low income earners if the government were to step in and put a cap on necessities such as milk, fruits & vegetables, heating fuel and so on.

That is an apples to oranges comparison. There is plenty of empiracle evidence to support the notion that price controls are harmful to production. Although, on the flip side of it, because of Agricultural Subsidies, Farmers operate in what amounts to a socialistic economy. There is not a farming state in the nation that pays in more in taxes than it recieves in subsidies.

So let the poor suffer?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

"Peace" after that cheap shot and eye roll?

I really didn't see it as a cheap shot at all. Sincerely if you follow your thought process to it's logical end. You will arrive at Chavez.

Why not support what he is trying to do in bringing down the Great satan America?

I made under $3.00 an hour when I first started working as a teen. I have heard the same argument for over two decades. It does not make any sense. If $2.50 an hour wasn't a living wage when I earned it as a teen. Why is $7.00 an hour acceptable now? Relatively speaking it is about the same buying power. Yet the populists carry on with the same logic.

Carry on your argument to it's pinnacle. Why not $20.00 and hour for the Minimum wage?

That equals $41,600 a year. At 40 hours a week. Not minus taxes even yet. Mind you most minimum wage earners are part-time.

So lets go ahead and make it a mandatory 40 hour minimum as well. I mean in the area of the Country I live in. With State and local taxes. That's Poverty level and you couldn't afford the most rudimentary housing.

Where is your compassion?

In the least you should be lobbying Congress to raise the minimum wage to $20.00 an hour and a minimum 40 hour work week. Not too mention driving farther and longer to find a Chevron gas station at which to fill up.

No cheap shot. It's rudimenatry economics.

I don't know about you, I own a small business. Most High School kids that I have employed lately and helped to employ. Are happy to make $10.00 an hour. That's a low minimum for babysitting around here, per hour.

Is it a living wage? Nope. It is what the economy will bear and what you must pay for part-time help catering or hiring a babysitter. Elsewise you will have no help.

The market will set the price or you will be all alone. If you pay less you will be hiring illegals. Which I could do but will not.

Do Corporate Officers make way too much money? In some cases I think so. Yet the Government has no business telling a business what it should pay it's officers. If they are incorrect in their asessments. They will fail in their Business.

Heard of the Health Insurance Law that Maryland tried to impose on Wal-Mart? it was found Un-Constitutional.

My father will tell you of when Health Insurance wasn't a benefit at all. Get that a benefit. Employers started offering it after WW2 to get a better grade of employee's. Health Insurance is a benefit not a Right.

Getting paid for a job is an employers cost of doing business, not a Right.

God says he will deal with those who withhold payment from those who are deserved of such. Those who trim wages and rob from the poor and widowed.

IMO, this Country is full of folks who prey on others and we are in bad need of a Revival.

That starts in the heart. Wealth is not the problem. It is folks hearts.

Yet the full end of what you are proposing is Chavez.

So no, no cheap shot.

This Country has problems most of them beginning at the House of the people of God. The House of the Lord. Repentance starts there.

However America is a far cry and site better than Venezuela or the Socialists regimes of Europe who are currently faltering and failing on the weight of their silly rationale. They can't even decide what evil in the world looks like. It's just a misunderstanding. It's all America's fault and it probably began at the minimum wage.

Sorry, sincerely the end of the argument you propose is Socialism and social engineering of society. It won't work in America. Rather it will, yet America will no longer be America.

Peace,

Dave

[forrestkc]

Perhaps it would be beneficial for low income earners if the government were to step in and put a cap on necessities such as milk, fruits & vegetables, heating fuel and so on.

That is an apples to oranges comparison. There is plenty of empiracle evidence to support the notion that price controls are harmful to production. Although, on the flip side of it, because of Agricultural Subsidies, Farmers operate in what amounts to a socialistic economy. There is not a farming state in the nation that pays in more in taxes than it receives in subsidies.

So let the poor suffer?

No, there are other ways. Tax credits and assistance to help them pay for heating oil. Food stamps to help them pay for food. In the case of Food Stamps, its helpful to the less fortunate, and its helpful to farmers.

[Marnie]

Where to begin.

First, your "non-partisan" website is highly partisan. The Economic Policy Institute is not non-partisan as it claims to be, so let's not even go there.

Second, let's not play my economist is smarter than yours. We can dance around all day on this and have spitting contests, but you'd be hard pressed to find a credible, non-agenda driven economist who really believes that a national, federally mandated minimum wage is a good idea. The only people who think it is are people who don't have a rudimentary understanding of economics.

Thirdly, once again the spectre of child labor is raised. There is no moral equivalency between a minimum wage and child exploitation. Nobody forces a person to work at a minimum wage job.

In the realm of so-called child labor, is child labor a bad thing? No. Is child exploitation wrong? Yes. How many families during the Depression era benefitted from having their children working? I suspect many, my dad's for one. Not every issue is black and white. We are fortunate in America to have an economy that makes the need for every member of the family working unnecessary. Of course, it hasn't always been this way, and or some family-run businesses, even to this day, both the parents and the kids all work. The rental agency that handles my rental properties, for example, is family-run and it is not unusual to see both mom and the kids cleaning the units, taking out the trash, etc. Is that cruel? I hardly think so. The kids learn the value of a buck and hard work, the parents get a chance to teach the kids lessons they don't learn in the public school system.

My friend Gerioke is right. If you are going to mandate a minimum wage for moral reasons, why not make groceries, gasoline, electricity, healthcare all free, since all those things are "necessary" for one's health and well-being, too.

[Marnie]

I made under $3.00 an hour when I first started working as a teen. I have heard the same argument for over two decades. It does not make any sense. If $2.50 an hour wasn't a living wage when I earned it as a teen. Why is $7.00 an hour acceptable now? Relatively speaking it is about the same buying power. Yet the populists carry on with the same logic.

Carry on your argument to it's pinnacle. Why not $20.00 and hour for the Minimum wage?

I don't know about you, I own a small business. Most High School kids that I have employed lately and helped to employ. Are happy to make $10.00 an hour. That's a low minimum for babysitting around here, per hour.

Is it a living wage? Nope. It is what the economy will bear and what you must pay for part-time help catering or hiring a babysitter. Elsewise you will have no help.

The market will set the price or you will be all alone. If you pay less you will be hiring illegals. Which I could do but will not.

Do Corporate Officers make way too much money? In some cases I think so. Yet the Government has no business telling a business what it should pay it's officers. If they are incorrect in their asessments. They will fail in their Business.

Heard of the Health Insurance Law that Maryland tried to impose on Wal-Mart? it was found Un-Constitutional.

My father will tell you of when Health Insurance wasn't a benefit at all. Get that a benefit. Employers started offering it after WW2 to get a better grade of employee's. Health Insurance is a benefit not a Right.

Getting paid for a job is an employers cost of doing business, not a Right.

God says he will deal with those who withhold payment from those who are deserved of such. Those who trim wages and rob from the poor and widowed.

Sorry, sincerely the end of the argument you propose is Socialism and social engineering of society. It won't work in America. Rather it will, yet America will no longer be America.

My friend, the voice of reason. Thanks Dave.

[forrestkc]

Where to begin.

First, your "non-partisan" website is highly partisan. The Economic Policy Institute is not non-partisan as it claims to be, so let's not even go there.

Second, let's not play my economist is smarter than yours. We can dance around all day on this and have spitting contests, but you'd be hard pressed to find a credible, non-agenda driven economist who really believes that a national, federally mandated minimum wage is a good idea. The only people who think it is are people who don't have a rudimentary understanding of economics.

It is not as black and white as you are making it out to be. Yes, any economist would claim that an extremely high minimum wage would be bad for the economy at a macro level, by artificially increasing the price of low end labor and making us that much less competitive in a global labor market. However, the majority of economists do not believe that modest increases in the minimum wage have any effects, good or bad, on the economy. Granted, most economists do believe that the Earned Income Tax Credit is a better way to help low income workers, but there is no empiracle evidence to suggest any correlation between past increases in the minimum wage and increased unemployment, increased inflation, or decreased economic growth. In fact, anyone would suggest that a modest minimum wage increase would result in inflation does not even grasp the basic principles of monetarism. So basically, there is a difference between raising the minimum wage a couple of dollars an hour, to a point that really the prevailing wage usually is anyway, and raising it to something like 15 or 20 dollars an hour.

Thirdly, once again the spectre of child labor is raised. There is no moral equivalency between a minimum wage and child exploitation. Nobody forces a person to work at a minimum wage job.

Yes there is. Children were not slaves, they were being exploited. Are you claiming that a dishwasher with an IQ of 90 is not capable of being exploited? How about a single mother desperate for work in an economically depressed area? The fact is, not everyone earning minimum wage or just more than minimum wage are high school age teenagers.

My friend Gerioke is right. If you are going to mandate a minimum wage for moral reasons, why not make groceries, gasoline, electricity, healthcare all free, since all those things are "necessary" for one's health and well-being, too.

Actually, his point was absurd. The Minimum wage does not logically lead to a government controlled socialist economy no more than a market economy leads to Feudalism. Our country is never going to be a communist nation and it is never going to be a country of unmitigated capitalism either. Black and white thinking like that is more of a sign of Borderline Personality Disorder than it is of reason and objectivity. We are a nation that wants to strike a balance between giving people the ability to build the life they want to build for themselves and providing some sort of a safetynet for the unfortunate among us. Therefore, we have a minimum wage. We also have a market economy. We have a safetynet that provides food stamps to help the poor purchase food. We have a safetynet that provides the poor with tax credits and assistance to help them purchase housing and heating oil. As a society, we have decided that it is our moral obligation to have this. This is what it means to be an American.

Prior to the progressive era, women could not vote, poverty rates were 30 to 40 percent, home ownership was primarily a province of the wealthy, life expectancy was 40 years, unemployment at times reached 20 to 30 percent of the population, workers had virtually no rights at all, and seniors made up the largest demographic living in poverty. It seems that our current system is not perfect, but it certainly has served us much better than any of the alternatives.

[Marnie]

forrestkc,

Your arguments pull at the heartstrings. Are you a politician?

Seriously, I guess we will always be at odds with this discussion. I do not believe in exploiting anybody, young, old, or incompetent. We do not live in Untopia; therefore there will always be a segment of the population that is poor, uneducated, etc. Mandating what one business pays its employees is not the answer. Redistributing wealth is not the answer. "Leveling the playing field" is not the answer. Equal access to opportunities is. And that is what America is about. Every citizen has equal access to health and education, etc. It is up to them to access what is available. With that, nobody has to remain in an entry level, low skill, minimum wage job.