Mark of the Beast

[kenod]

Just some ideas, and a few different takes on what all of you have said already. I wanted to comment on a few of the things you all said in different posts, so I will just start again:

Quote, Kenod: " think it is clear from these and other indications, that the city is the Vatican, and the beast is papal succession. Some Popes have been notably good (JP11), but there have also been those who were corrupt and debauched. In the future, I believe such a man will gain control of the papacy".

This is certainly possible, but what about the EU? It seems logical to me that "a continuation of the old Roman empire" is the EU, and the EU fits the bill for everything else. "The city" would be the Hague in the Netherlands. The "Beast", possibly, has yet to emerge and could be an (as yet) up and coming European politician or bureaucrat. The lust for power is already there, in the form of the EU's desire to "control the world" through the international criminal court and the UN. UN headquarters might be in NY, but that doesn't mean that is in any way an American organisation. I believe that "the Harlot" is a one-world-religion (formed using the "popular" - in Europe anyway - idea of being "inclusive" and "blending" several beliefs together, even if they have nothing to do with traditional Christianity, and of course, leaving out the resurrection of Jesus). I know this is assuming a lot, but I can see it happening quite easily and a lot of people being fooled into believing in it.

I agree it is very possible that EU countries could be involved. That may be the meaning of the "ten kings"

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Nevertheless, we are told "the beast" is a man, and given a number of ways to identify him. In a future world devastated by nuclear terrorism, climate change, a flu pandemic, and economic chaos, a man will emerge with great charismatic leadership qualities. By adding up all the Scriptural references to the beast, I believe that it points to a pope.

There has been a couple of comments on the RFID implantable chip and its location. So here's another reason for "the chip" to be in the right hand or the forehead. I will quote from an article by Dr Carl Sanders, one of the inventors of the original microchip: " This microchip is recharged by body temperature changes. Obviously you can't go in and have your battery changed every so often, so the microchip has a recharging circuit that charges based upon the body temperature changes. Over one and a half million dollars was spent finding out that the two places in the body that the temperature changes the most rapidly are in the forehead (primary position), right below the hairline, and the back of the hand (alternative position). "

Why would you personally object to a microchip implant?

I believe that The Revelation is describing a spiritual conflict. It will necessarily involve political and economic forces in its working out. At some stage, I see that all churches will be required to be registered to gain official recognition. Of course, that already happens within denominations. You must agree to that church's creed or you will be denied access to the resources of that denomination.

In another discussion forum, which claims to be the largest Christian discussion forum on the web, the rules state that I will not be recognized as a Christian unless I am willing to accept the Nicene creed. I cannot, so I do not participate.

The danger I see in focusing on a physical "mark of the beast' is that we could overlook the spiritual significance of what is happening.

[eric]

Good topic, Kenod, and if everyone keeps their cool, it could have developements. Like you I don't see a terrble lot of danger of the micro chip, because as you pointed out we have been identifyable for years with cell phones computers,credit cards and eftpos and so on.

It's the part where you cant buy and sell without this mark that confuses me mostly and the only way.....at the moment..... is to be under the control of some central form of world governance that can control the flow of world finances. For example, we are likely to wake up and find news flashes in all media, stating from a certain date all private and business bank accounts will be frozen and cash will only be accepted as legal tender up until a certain date. After the end of the cash refusal, the you will be required to accept ( whatever we are supposed to accept in order to buy and sell).before we can operate our bank accounts

We can all only speculate, but when it happens it will catch a whole lot people by surprise and will cause a lot of chaos. Not forgetting the Berlin wall that happened over night you might say. However the Lord said that he who endures to the shall be saved.

I hope the thread doesn't just fizzle out.

cheers.

Edited December 21, 2006 by eric

[kenod]

I do lean speculatively somewhat on the chip though because although with modern technology with the cell phones and credit cards, debit cards etc. The only way that I think an individual would not be able to buy and sell will be through an advancement in technology but a new type of globally accepted technology. This is a little more fathomable for those who reside outside of the U.S because of National Medicare.

Most countries have a National Medicare system, the U.S. has been a little behind the times in accepting or adopting a National Medicare package for it's citizens because it is in fact socialism. In Canada we do have Research and Development in the Universities where they are trying to group all of these together into one chip. So basically you will have your Bank info, Credit card info, Medical info, Drivers License and Vehicle Registration all grouped together in a personal database that can be implanted into your hand. It is even being tested to turn lights off and on as you eneter and exit the rooms of your home as well as unlock the door to your home as you approach it....not a very safe function if you ask me.

The difference right now is, you can ditch all the plastic and cell phones and go fluid currency and go nearly undetectable within society...disappear. The implementation of the chip will give a financial institution so much power over you that it is just uncanny. Cash would no longer be required, not one person would ever be able to evade taxes ever again, organized crime and drug trafficking would come to a near halt because of the accountability of the electronic transaction, at any given time your location globally will be fixed via GPS.

How this could come to a reality? The U.S., Canada and Mexico may need to group together and form a new union in order to compete with Europe as they are getting financially and economically stronger every year. The US worker will not be able to compete dollar for dollar anymore with these countries in the next 10 years or so, so we will have to unionize North America to compete or adopt the Euro and fall into place in a Global Partnership with Europe.

If this Global Partnership becomes a reality, which it can quite easily, all that needs to happen is, if the oil producing nations adopt the Euro, North America has no choice but to adopt it as well. At this point there is no longer a need for currency but a need for a Global Banking system by which all data for each and every individual person can be linked through a massive mainframe computer.

Become an enemy of the state of this Global government and they turn off your chip...that simple, no cash currency, no way to buy or sell.

I'm not saying that this is how it will be, but is the most likely scenario based on our present state of technology and our continued survival under an imperialist social economic structure. I just wouldn't rule it out is my point.

Peace

CJ

Rev 13:17

And that

no man might buy or sell

, save he that had the mark,

or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Do you think this means every person on the planet (6.5 billion) will be forced to receive a microchip implant, or not be able to buy and sell?

That seems unlikely to me, although every person on the planet is required to make a decision about what they believe and how they will act. That

[kenod]

CJ, as I see it, we are already forced to accept substantial infringement of our personal liberty, for the sake of convenience or complying with the law. An electronic chip in itself is of no consequence. What it represents must be more than just curtailment of personal freedom. It would need to have a spiritual significance that amounts to worship. The "mark" must in some way pertain to our faith - what we believe about God.

Rev 14:9-10

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man

worship

the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God

[Donnierae]

CJ, as I see it, we are already forced to accept substantial infringement of our personal liberty, for the sake of convenience or complying with the law. An electronic chip in itself is of no consequence. What it represents must be more than just curtailment of personal freedom. It would need to have a spiritual significance that amounts to worship. The "mark" must in some way pertain to our faith - what we believe about God.

Rev 14:9-10

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man

worship

the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God

I am courios. Doesn't anyone believe that the church will be gone at the time of anyone being forced to having the mark of the beast, or a chip implant being mandated for them to " buy or sell"????

[Floatingaxe]

I am courios. Doesn't anyone believe that the church will be gone at the time of anyone being forced to having the mark of the beast, or a chip implant being mandated for them to " buy or sell"????

Yes, I believe that the time of the Church will have been fulfilled and She will be outta there.

[eric]

Also, unless I'm reading too quickly v.8 does define that it is unbelievers that will worship not believers because the verse denotes those whose name are not written in the book of life of the lamb. As far as I understand it, the book of life of the Lamb contains the names of those who are in Christ.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Just thought I would introduce this into the scenario.

CJ

I don't suppose it matters if I open another can of worms. It is my belief that your name is writtne in the book of life from the time of your conception and is only erased if you don't meet the reqirements to be redeemed.on the day the books are opened.

Go for it.

[eric]

I'm not sure how to go about this one eric, I came to this conclusion based on the idea of how are salvation works, we come to Christ as the dead and through Him we achieve life everlasting, not that I can really find anything scriptural about it but you do have an interesting can of worms here.

but aren't we redeemed by the sacrifice at the cross?

CJ

Yes CJ I suppose it is confusing and I'm still working on it. we are saved by the work on the cross when we go through the prosess of salvation and become justified. Salvation is a foot in the door and then comes sanctification which is when God sets us aside to do His holy work.

In Luke.21:20-28. Jesus explains to His disciples the terrible things that will occur when you see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory, He continued by saying when these things begin to happen, lift up your heads because your redmption is drawing nigh.

Maybe it's hairspliting. Below is the theological dictionary's view on sanctification,

Sanctify, Sanctification

To sanctify means to be set apart for a holy use. God has set us apart for the purpose of sanctification not impurity (1 Thess. 4:7) and being such we are called to do good works (Eph. 2:10).

Christians are to sanctify Christ as Lord in their hearts (1 Pet. 3:15). God sanctified Israel as His own special nation (Ezek. 27:28). People can be sanctified (Exodus 19:10,14) and so can a mountain (Exodus 19:23), as can the Sabbath day (Gen. 2:3), and every created thing is sanctified through the word of God and prayer (1 Tim. 4:4).1

Sanctification follows justification. In justification our sins are completely forgiven in Christ. Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit makes us more like Christ in all that we do, think, and desire. True sanctification is impossible apart from the atoning work of Christ on the cross because only after our sins are forgiven can we begin to lead a holy life.

I hope this helps on some way.

[TomPJr]

There is so much to say about this topic, so if I said it all it would be too hard for many to swallow, so I'll be brief and give you something to think about...

Rev 9:4 And it was commaunded them that they should not hurt the grasse of the earth, neither any greene thing, neither any tree: but only those men which haue not the seale of God in their foreheads.

If you don't have the seal of God then you get the mark of the beast.

If we understand the seal of God then we may better understand the mark of the beast.

here is the strongs definition of seal from the above text...

G4973

σφραγίς

sphragis

sfrag-ece'

Probably strengthened from G5420; a signet (as fencing in or protecting from misappropriation); by implication the stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy, or genuineness), literally or figuratively: - seal.

A seal was generally used by Kings and people of authority to keep important documents closed. There was generally an impression made on the seal with a signet ring, in which would have the NAME, TITLE, AND DOMAIN.

What could the seal of God be then? The bible says that those who are sealed keep his commandments. If you're not keeping them to the best of your knowledge then you'll recieve the mark of the beast.

Hmmmm....all throughout history, the battle between God and satan has revolved around WORSHIP. DON'T YOU THINK THAT WORSHIP WILL PLAY A PART?

We must keep his commandments if we want to get sealed.

There is one commandment that specifically deals with worship, and has all the characteristics of a seal. The 4th commandment...

GOD (name), CREATOR (title), HEAVEN AND EARTH (domain)

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

notice the word sign in the above texts....sign can also be a seal. the signet ring was a sign...

We must keep his commandments. Satan has decieved the whole world just as prophesised.

He wants to do away with Gods laws, and wants us to forget the one law God told us to remember.

Jesus prophesied that in the last days men would walk after their own lusts and keep traditions of men over the commandments of God.

There are so many excuses to disregard the Sabbath, but they're all rediculus! It's still Gods law!

The reason people that understand this truth harp on it so much is because nobody challenges the other nine commandments...

as a brother in christ it is my duty to inform my brothers and sisters of their error to glorify God. If everybody wanted to make excuses to commit adultery, or steal, etc... We'd be addressing those issues as well

Keep Gods commandments....it's our Christian duty

with love,

Tom

[eric]

Sorry folks, I slipped a bit there and took the thread off the topic of the MoB, so I will let the original thread proceed wirhout hijacking it. I should have started a new thread. ooops

e