ELECTION or FREE WILL

[Floatingaxe]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

Just one more flaxe. there's a big difference in God knowing who will and will not accept Jesus, once they have been conceived, than the idea of calvanists that say God has already assigned them to hell before they were evn born, with out giving them the choice........that's all.

I have no idea what Calvinists say. I know what God's Word says.

[Zceiv]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

Just one more flaxe. there's a big difference in God knowing who will and will not accept Jesus, once they have been conceived, than the idea of calvanists that say God has already assigned them to hell before they were evn born, with out giving them the choice........that's all.

That is hyper-calvinism

[billie]

My understanding(which doesn't count for much )is not so cut-and-dry as the two choices. I picked I believed because I was saved, but I wonder if I could've hardened my heart against God's revelations of Himself to me. I don't know if they were "irresistable", but I know there was no way I would've come to Christ on my own. I was "totally depraved".

[larryt]

That is probably for another discussion

God hated Esau, or at least who Esau would be.

Why?

If Esau were going to turn out to be a man who loved God and His ways, do we believe that God would still hate him (or his 'sin' as the case may be)?

Either God purposely created Esau to be the man he turned out to be so that He could hate him (his sin, his ways) or God knew who Esau would be and based His hate on that.

Hi FoC,

Just wondering how and where you came up with the aforementioned conclusions? Do you have a basis in the bible or are you relying on men's reasoning?

2Ti 1:9 [God]Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These verses say just the opposite, but that the purpose of God according to election MIGHT STAND. Not of any works.

Ro 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

LT

[apothanein kerdos]

Here's my question -

If God knew who would choose and who would not...how can we say we are not predestined?

[larryt]

FREE WILL is a tern several of you have used to justify your conclusions. Would you please define the term so I can address it without assumptions.

LT

[larryt]

kjn, This topic is an ongoing one and we can only draw coclusions from how we interpret the word from our own point of view.

Hi eric,

Humanly speaking you are right about how the natural man interprets the Word. We are not to trust in our own understanding.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Pr 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

2Pe 1:19

[larryt]

Here's my question -

If God knew who would choose and who would not...how can we say we are not predestined?

Good question.

Another -

If God chose only those that WOULD believe the is He not taking credit for something He did not do?

LT

[kjn]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

if I am 'choosing when the opportunity presents itself', what and who am I choosing? it appears that I'm choosing the One who instituted hell. I guess my interest is less about the 'doctrine' of free will/election itself than about the implications of the 'doctrine'... the implications of who God is and the motivation to associate with that God.

Actually, regardless of the deciding factor(s) for the eternal destiny of an individual, it appears to me from the Bible that there is an eternal torment and that some beings will go there.

Regardless of whether I'm choosing, chosen, or both, my honest reaction is a negative, scared, saddened perspective of the God who instituted 'the way it is.' How do you deal with this realistically without being glib, without denying the horror of the existence of hell and the God who instituted it?

Ok, I know I digressed...., don't have time on this computer to move my post.

[larryt]

God is not willing that ANY should perish, but because of our corruption, some will choose hell. God knows who will and who won't, as He has omniscience. That has nothing to do with the fact that we have a will to choose Christ or deny Him. God just happens to know who will and who won't. As we don't have that foreknowledge, we ought to choose when the opportunity presents itself.

if I am 'choosing when the opportunity presents itself', what and who am I choosing? it appears that I'm choosing the One who instituted hell. I guess my interest is less about the 'doctrine' of free will/election itself than about the implications of the 'doctrine'... the implications of who God is and the motivation to associate with that God.

Actually, regardless of the deciding factor(s) for the eternal destiny of an individual, it appears to me from the Bible that there is an eternal torment and that some beings will go there.

Regardless of whether I'm choosing, chosen, or both, my honest reaction is a negative, scared, saddened perspective of the God who instituted 'the way it is.' How do you deal with this realistically without being glib, without denying the horror of the existence of hell and the God who instituted it?

Ok, I know I digressed...., don't have time on this computer to move my post.

Hi kjn,

I am not sure what it is you are struggling with, but I do not agree with FA's proposition above that

some will choose hell

There is no choice in the matter for them.

Hell was not created for man but for the devil and his angels.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

the implications of the 'doctrine'...

As you put it, of associating with the God of the bible or OF A GOD OF YOUR OWN IMAGINATION. This is the biggest struggle for anyone. Coming to grips with the distinction. How do we tell if what we believe is what has been REVEALED to us by the Holy Spirit or just imagined by our own corrupt mind. For me it was God, putting in me the desire to really know Him no matter who He was. I found that Jesus Christ was God and Lord and that the Holy Spirit was Him living in me and showing me the Father.

LT