forrestkc Posted February 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 20, 2007 absurd? i told you what i read in many reviews, including from catholic sites, and you're saying it's absurd to compare it to the message? oh the irony, considering the one and only passage you provided us was almost identical to the way the passage reads in the message. The Message: Exodus 21:22-25 "When there's a fight and in the fight a pregnant woman is hit so that she miscarries but is not otherwise hurt, the one responsible has to pay whatever the husband demands in compensation. But if there is further damage, then you must give life for life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 question.... have you ever seen those interesting little films where they used cameras inside the woman's body as they aborted a fetus? i think i remember seeing one as early as my teen years. you could see the scream of pain on the fetus's face. do you know that from that very first cell formed, the cell contains all 46 chromosomes that identifies it as part of the human race? do you know that a baby's heart is beating at 18 days gestation? and the brain shortly after that? by the tenth week, they have recorded brain waves. they can FEEL before that though. they can feel sensations in the facial and neck regions as early as six weeks, and react to painful stimulous (needle pricks peformed by a physician) by the beginning of the 7th. do you know that abortions are rarely performed prior to six weeks? do you realize that the "embryonic" stage of development is completed by 12 weeks and that the baby is completely formed, organs, lungs and all? and yet abortions after that point are still a common everyday procedure. in fact, a D&C abortion (non-chemical) is most commonly done between 12 and 14 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Forrest - How do you believe God feels about abortion? Do you believe God takes issue with it? To be honest with you, I really don't know. I think that a lot of people on here think they know, but I doubt they really do. I do not believe it is nearly as black and white of an issue as many would paint it. Forrest, you make it sound like God is unknowable. Yet as I read Scripture, I see all over where it is His delight for His people to know Him, to know His ways. Why don't you try seeking the Lord to reveal His heart to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted February 20, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted February 20, 2007 no, forrest, i'd never heard of the NAB til you mentioned it. since then i've looked up reviews on the version from dozens of sites, including catholic ones, all of which state that it is NOT word for word. i might add that none of the sites said anything negative about the version, so don't go thinking that they were bashing it. they actually gave very glowing recommendations for this paraphrase. google it. that's what i did, and it's something you're good at. as to your question of when God considers a fetus to be human, try READING the Bible. maybe some passages where God says 'i knit you in your mother's womb" and knew your name before you were formed and those kinds of things. but maybe your precious paraphrase words them ambiguously which gives you an excuse not to believe that God considers life at conception. The NAB is no more paraphrased than the NASB, the RSV, or the NRSV. It is simply a modern translation. You are comparing it to The Message and that is an absurd comparison. The full text of the Bible is here: http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/ , just look a few verses up and compare it to what ever translation you use, you will find that its not a paraphrased Bible. Also, I know the verses you are referring to. However, while its obvious that God knows that a fetus becomes a person, which is a given. There is nothing in scripture that I can think of that would indicate that God believes a fetus or an embryo should have the same rights and protections as a new born does. I have a 6 year old son. An 8 week old embryo is not the same thing as my 6 year old son. An 8 week old embryo is not the same thing as my son when he was a newborn. Hmmm.... Let's try the other end of the spectrum. You are not the same at 90 years old that you are at 35. If your body is broken down to such a degree that it puts a burden on someone else (your children maybe), would it be ok for the state to pass a law that says it's legal to do away with you out of convenience? After all, that's why people have abortions, for the most part, right? A matter of convenience? Yeah, we can find some that had abortions because they felt they couldn't take care of the baby, and for other rare reasons, but I think the majority of them happen because a baby would be a simple inconvenience for the mother and possibly the father, if known and involved. So, why not simply do away with people when they become an inconvenience? Think of the money we could save as a nation, right? I mean, no more pesky little medical bills clogging up people's lives due to excessive long term health care for the elderly? Wouldn't that be the way to go? I know you have stated several times that you do not personally agree with abortion, except under certain circumstances. Obviously, that is a personal choice which leaves you with a certain amount of comfort. But think about it: should it really be legal? Should a state be given that kind of authority to say that something like that is ok? How about a potential parent? Thanks, t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Hamburgers! Posted February 20, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,144 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 163 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1985 Share Posted February 20, 2007 The party that promotes abortion on demand and the homosexual agenda is the party of satan, and the party that for the most part opposes these sinful agendas is the closer to God. The reason the democratic party supports these actions is because they are believed to be humanitarian issues. They aren't supporting these actions because they are attempting to support satan, they are supporting these actions because they feel they are the right things to do. The party that is "closer to God" in America today is also supporting a violent and bloody overseas millitary operation. The party that is "closer to God" is generally viewed to be supported by the wealthy, while the "party of satan" is generally viewed to be supported by the less fortunate and the impoverished of our society. Who is to say which party is more "Godly" and which isn't? You can vote for who you feel is right, but to demonize one side as satan's party and one's side as the more "Godly" party is just wrong, I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 hamburger, it doesn't matter WHAT their intentions are.... humanitarian or otherwise. if they are supporting the slaughter of unborn children or the rights of homosexuals to call their perversion marriage, they're supporting satan's agenda. as for the republican party supporting war, it does no good to remind you of the OT because you disregard the relevance and the inerrancy of God's word. you ALSO seem to be disregarding the fact that while wars do kill, those we are in war against were by and far more violent and bloody to begin with, and this war is an attempt to erradicate that kind of senseless destruction. you seem to be implying that those we are at war against are innocent victims of our military power.... you need to study history, current events, AND scripture. contextually, i might add. and furthermore, you need to study economics. you're understanding of it is lacking. the republicans aren't about supporting the wealthy at the expense of the impoverished. that's a lie of the democratic party that many impoverished people fall victim to though. i've never been rich, and never will be. but i learned a whole lot from my economics classes, and i've spent most of my life as a registered republican. i can tell you firsthand, the democrats i've known in my personal life are WAY less likely to lift a finger to help anybody, but are far more eager to overtax wealthy people so that someone else gives a helping hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Hamburgers! Posted February 20, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,144 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 163 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1985 Share Posted February 20, 2007 But by that standard, if you vote for any party that supports sin at any point, you are supporting the "devil's party". Both sides aren't innocent, that is true. So why vote? Homosexual rights and abortion are just two issues among a slew of political agendas and bills being passed that can do good for this country and our people. To wrap up half of this country as supporting the devil because of these two issues seems wrong to me. I am also surprised you find no problem in the issue of war. God may have helped free his people through violent means in the Old Testament, but Jesus always practiced peaceful means in order to resolve disputes. I cannot believe for a minute that God would accept or desire war in the world today, for ANY reason. Life is sacred, it doesn't matter how or why it is extinguished. I also find it very ironic that abortion is such a hot topic for many on this board, while the countless deaths happening today from war doesn't seem to be an issue. In fact it seems supported at times. As I said before, getting God wrapped up in political debates can lead to very ugly results. Once a political side claims God to be with them, and the notion is backed up by the populace, power is almost inevitably abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 life is sacred you say? didn't you mean to add as long as it's a viable life that is already outside the womb? add the new testament to the things you need to study hamburger. Jesus and God are the same. Jesus and God were always about love and peace, but never for "peace by all means" or at the expense of allowing evil to run rampant. do you believe hussain was an evil man running an evil empire? do you believe that to be true also of bin laden? of hitler? or do you feel they were all misunderstood people and we had no right or God-given responsibility to help remove the evil from power so that the innocents could thrive? i know, the Bible is just a reference guide to you.... so the fact that Jesus Himself told His followers to pick up their swords, and if they didn't have one, to BUY one (that means literally make sure you are amed with weapons of defense, not just in the spiritual context, because you can't "buy" spiritual weapons), and the fact that NT scripture clearly gives the governing powers the authority to declare war, mean nothing to you. in your mind, they're just more of that fanciful garbage that is printed in the book of fairy tales the rest of us call God's Holy Word. we can't vote against anyone who ever sins, because we've ALL sinned and fall short of the glory of God. but it is our responsibility to vote against a party that seeks to further an agenda which encourages people to sin. butero has made the point that the republican party is not perfect. but i don't see any issues on the republican docket that encourage or promote sinful behaviour as "healthy alternatives" or "personal rights over one's own body".... which by the way, we all know that our body is not our own.... it's given to us by WHOM? oh yeah, that would be God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Hamburgers! Posted February 20, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,144 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 163 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1985 Share Posted February 20, 2007 life is sacred you say? didn't you mean to add as long as it's a viable life that is already outside the womb? No, actually, I meant that all life is sacred. add the new testament to the things you need to study hamburger. Jesus and God are the same. Jesus and God were always about love and peace, but never for "peace by all means" or at the expense of allowing evil to run rampant. What did you get out of the NT? What was the overall theme that Jesus was teaching in your personal view, if you don't mind me asking? I got that he taught us to love and respect other humans, regardless of their flaws. If I could boil the entire NT down to one phrase, it would be to love God and humanity, and to follow God's laws while performing good on earth. People (in my opinion) get so caught up in justifying their mindset by overanalyzing specific verses of the bible, that they tend to overlook the "thesis" of the book, so to speak. do you believe hussain was an evil man running an evil empire? do you believe that to be true also of bin laden? of hitler? or do you feel they were all misunderstood people and we had no right or God-given responsibility to help remove the evil from power so that the innocents could thrive? No, I do not feel they were evil people, I feel they were rulers and dictators that performed evil deeds. I do not condone their actions in any way, but I would like to make that distinction. butero has made the point that the republican party is not perfect. but i don't see any issues on the republican docket that encourage or promote sinful behaviour as "healthy alternatives" or "personal rights over one's own body".... which by the way, we all know that our body is not our own.... it's given to us by WHOM? oh yeah, that would be God. The reason I did not vote for Bush is because of his international policies. I feel in order to maintain social stability in the future it is imperative we learn to cooperate peacefully with other countries. As you said, no party is perfect, I have problems with some aspects of the Democratic Party just as you do, but I figured it to be the lesser of the two evils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 hamburg, what i got out of the NT is that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. what i get out of it is that Jesus did not come to abolish God's law, but to fulfill it. i get that Jesus expects us to treat one another with kindness and love through peaceful means, and ALSO that the government is under the authority of God to use might and power to accomplish God's work on this earth, even through war and through death penalties. i get that Jesus intends to come back to set up His kingdom by totally destroying the PEOPLE who oppose God. do you see revelation as being some fanciful imaginary event too? or do you think that the battle of armaggedon will include living, breathing human beings that will be slaughtered by God's army? and for the record, since you don't consider life of the unborn to be sacred, your remark that all life is sacred is disingenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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