Guest Seeker Of Truth Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 How does it work ? I can see a few ways of looking at it , but i'm not sure which is correct. Jesus died as a sacrifice to save all mankind , he took upon himself all our sins and so we are all forgiven. Now does this mean that there are now 2 groups of people , those who believe that and those who don't ? which would mean that those who don't believe it are actualy still saved but don't know it. Or does the "being saved" process only work for those who believe ? ...and if so , then how does believing save a person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 29, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Well, this is going to be interesting to see how different people are going to explain this one, but here is my go at it. To understand the sacrifice of Jesus, one must first understand the Jewish sacrificial system as layed out in the Law (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). In the way of the Law, the purpose of sacrifice was to atone for sin. Your sin, your guilt was placed upon the animal, and the animal took the death you deserved for that sin. Once a year, there would be a special offering performed by the High Priest to atone for the sin of the entire people. In this case, the blood of the sacrifice was actualy sprinkled onto the Ark of the Covenant (I hope you are familiar with what that is?), which resided in the most sacred sanctuary of the Tabernacle/Temple called the Holy of Holies. Jesus, in the eyes of God, became the final sacrifice for sin. It could be said that all the sacrificing done before were mearly foreshadows of the unltimate sacrifice to come. Now, the Law was given under the Covenant between God and Abraham, the father of the people to whom the Law was given. The Covenant the Lord made to Abraham was to him and his decendants. However, the people needed to be faithful to the Lord, which often times they were not, and so for a long time were separated from the Temple and the ability to perform sacrifices. Now, as written in the book of Hebrews, the sacrifice of Jesus is under a greater Covenant than the one given to Abraham. Yes, this sacrifice was for the entire World, but for the sacrifice to be of effect to an individual, a person needs to be bound to the Covenant. To be bound to that Covenant, one must believe and act on that belief. Now, I do not know how much you do or do not know about Christian doctrine and the account of the Gospels. So, if you need me to clarify or further explain what I just said, I can do so if you ask. But this is the groundwork of how I understand the explanation to your question. (Of course, soemone else want to explain what I said better, go right ahead!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seeker Of Truth Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Thank you Nebula , but I already new that . What i'm looking for is a discussion on what I have said in my OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted December 29, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 29, 2003 Hello Seeker :t3: Good questions, well written, I will try to give you my thoughts. 2 Corinthians 9 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift! Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 29, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Thank you Nebula , but I already new that . What i'm looking for is a discussion on what I have said in my OP. Well, all righty then! Err . . . What about this line? but for the sacrifice to be of effect to an individual, a person needs to be bound to the Covenant. To be bound to that Covenant, one must believe and act on that belief. I mean, if Jesus said that a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God, and if Paul instructed "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved; for it is with the " what more can be said? I do not understand the source of your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGR Posted December 29, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 512 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 8,601 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/16/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/04/1973 Share Posted December 29, 2003 The sacrifice was for everyone, but a person must choose to accept it. It would be like me bringing ice cream for everyone here, but a person would have to eat the ice cream to accept it. If a person refuses to accept the gift, they don't have it. Sorry but I don't know how much more clear to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seeker Of Truth Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 I do not understand the source of your question. lol......it's hard for me to explain myself , but i'll try. Ok i'm thinking jesus starts the ball rolling by his sacrifice ( casting down his life ) and asking us to follow him , but not literaly of course . So the person who believes him and follows him will cast down his life , repent , change his ways , be born again , off with the old man and on with the new , etc , etc . In other words , it appears the believer is the one who is making the changes , but it couldn't happen untill he/she came to the point of belief , and now the believer goes through life trying not to sin , and so the expression "Jesus took your sins upon himself" can be seen in a different light . So when I hear someone say , Jesus died for your sins , do I presume that this is how it works? ...that this is the mechanics of it? Not that he actualy took a persons sins , but that through his death a person attempts not to sin. I think i'm making sense...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted December 31, 2003 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted December 31, 2003 Ok i'm thinking jesus starts the ball rolling by his sacrifice ( casting down his life ) and asking us to follow him , but not literaly of course . (snip) So when I hear someone say , Jesus died for your sins , do I presume that this is how it works? ...that this is the mechanics of it? Not that he actualy took a persons sins , but that through his death a person attempts not to sin. If I am understanding what you are saying correctly, no that's not the mechanics of it. For one thing, this is sounding like a salvation through works belief. Although it is true that "faith without works is dead," the point is that these works are evidence of faith. That is, the lack of works is evidence that there is actually a lack of faith. You see, faith then is the focus, not the works. In other words , it appears the believer is the one who is making the changes" It is true that we make choices, but as far as change goes, that comes from within. Remember I Cor. 13? A person can have all the works, cast down his life, and all that, but without love it all means nothing. It's like living in a hen house doesn't make you a chicken; only being a chicken makes you a chicken. I know, silly example, but it is the same principle. The second thing I see is that what you are saying reminds me of what I would hear from Hindus and Buddhists and other New Age religions. You may not mean this, at least I hope you do not, but the way what you said is worded demotes Jesus to being merely an example to follow. This is not so! Remember what I said about sacrifices? In the eyes of God, the sin is actually placed on the animal. Now consider, if you had to slay an animal for every sin you committed, wouldn't you start thinking twice about your actions? Think of it this way: "If I swipe this candy bar from the store, the only way I can be absolved of this is if I slay my dog on the altar." What is more important to you, the momentary pleasure of the sin, or the prolonged pleasure of your dog? (OK, not 100% theologically correct, but trying to give you an idea of the impact.) 2 Corinthians 5:21 - "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." If I change, it is because I allow God to change me through my believing and obeying. It's a completely different focus! Revelation 5 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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