Jesus' divinity

[HAZARD]

Fundamental Christianity generally teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity are one, that is, united, in one body.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally.

Paul said in 1 Cor. 3:23; "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's."

Paul also stated in 1 Cor. 11:3; "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD." So God the Father is seperate from Jesus and is over Jesus.

[rtwo]

Very well-done, Hazard. This is a great explanation.

I guess my question to the nontrinitarians would be, what do you do with John 1:1-3:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."? (NIV, my italics)

To me, this is pretty clear that, A, it is referencing Jesus, and, B, it is ascribing deity to Jesus.

I am a non-trinitarian and have described the meaning of this passage in another forum.

John 1

Thanks for the link. I read it, but I have to tell you, if you have to try that hard to make it work, maybe there's something wrong with the interpretation. It just doesn't fly, and you seem to be trying to force the wording into what you'd like to believe. But the wording doesn't say that -- and nowhere else in the bible is the sort of language pattern established that you're trying to establish.

[Mutzrein]

Very well-done, Hazard. This is a great explanation.

I guess my question to the nontrinitarians would be, what do you do with John 1:1-3:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."? (NIV, my italics)

To me, this is pretty clear that, A, it is referencing Jesus, and, B, it is ascribing deity to Jesus.

I am a non-trinitarian and have described the meaning of this passage in another forum.

John 1

Thanks for the link. I read it, but I have to tell you, if you have to try that hard to make it work, maybe there's something wrong with the interpretation. It just doesn't fly, and you seem to be trying to force the wording into what you'd like to believe. But the wording doesn't say that -- and nowhere else in the bible is the sort of language pattern established that you're trying to establish.

That's OK. I don't have to try hard. There was a point when I didn't understand it either. What I received from the Lord was a revelation for me. I don't expect all to see it.

[firehill]

Can we become like Jesus Christ? Some would say 'yes and no'.

Aren't we to follow him?

Why are we so stumped by Christ's nature? Is his nature really a mystery? Logicaly speaking I'd say, yes, for those who hold to Christ's dual nature being one for it escapes reason. God's not the author of confusion though. He created logic and our minds with which to engage in.

If we cannot understand his nature which defines him then how can we really follow him or become like him?

How can we be like him if he is both 'fully human and fully God' (illogical anyhoo for if the two become one then his humnnity changes and is therefore not actually what is human...) when we can never even be God or have two natures that become one?

We born of water and Spirit.

Christ, was the Firstborn.

[Guest shiloh357]

Very well-done, Hazard. This is a great explanation.

I guess my question to the nontrinitarians would be, what do you do with John 1:1-3:

" 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."? (NIV, my italics)

To me, this is pretty clear that, A, it is referencing Jesus, and, B, it is ascribing deity to Jesus.

I am a non-trinitarian and have described the meaning of this passage in another forum.

John 1

Thanks for the link. I read it, but I have to tell you, if you have to try that hard to make it work, maybe there's something wrong with the interpretation. It just doesn't fly, and you seem to be trying to force the wording into what you'd like to believe. But the wording doesn't say that -- and nowhere else in the bible is the sort of language pattern established that you're trying to establish.

That's OK. I don't have to try hard. There was a point when I didn't understand it either. What I received from the Lord was a revelation for me. I don't expect all to see it.

Sorry, but that "revelation" did not come from God. I also looked at your "interpretation" of John 1, and it is a very sloppy exegetical handling of that chapter.

[Mutzrein]

And that's OK too. I am but a simple man, not given to an academic approach. I can only relate what was given me by the Lord. I realise that with revelation of the Spirit there can never be adequate exegesis. If there could, then all the 'learned' men of Jesus time would have understood what He said.

[firehill]

And that's OK too. I am but a simple man, not given to an academic approach. I can only relate what was given me by the Lord. I realise that with revelation of the Spirit there can never be adequate exegesis. If there could, then all the 'learned' men of Jesus time would have understood what He said.

Ghee you're so eloquent for a simple man. Wanna pass some of that over here?

[Mutzrein]

And that's OK too. I am but a simple man, not given to an academic approach. I can only relate what was given me by the Lord. I realise that with revelation of the Spirit there can never be adequate exegesis. If there could, then all the 'learned' men of Jesus time would have understood what He said.

Ghee you're so eloquent for a simple man. Wanna pass some of that over here?

I like what it says in Acts.

When they (the rulers, elders and teachers of the law) saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

I would say there are many who know about Jesus but fewer, who having been with him, are really that aquainted.

[rtwo]

And that's OK too. I am but a simple man, not given to an academic approach. I can only relate what was given me by the Lord. I realise that with revelation of the Spirit there can never be adequate exegesis. If there could, then all the 'learned' men of Jesus time would have understood what He said.

Ghee you're so eloquent for a simple man. Wanna pass some of that over here?

I like what it says in Acts.

When they (the rulers, elders and teachers of the law) saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

I would say there are many who know about Jesus but fewer, who having been with him, are really that aquainted.

And I would suggest that if you truly have been aquainted with Jesus, you would understand and believe His deity.

[Guest shiloh357]

And that's OK too. I am but a simple man, not given to an academic approach. I can only relate what was given me by the Lord. I realise that with revelation of the Spirit there can never be adequate exegesis. If there could, then all the 'learned' men of Jesus time would have understood what He said.

Sorry, but God did not reveal that to you at all.