thesorgo Posted July 15, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/10/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2007 I think it tanks more "pride of self" to say you know exactly who or what happened to create the universe than it does to accept the fact that there might be something else that happened That's the thing...we DO know how it happened. It has nothing to do with pride, but because we know the creator. That's exactly what I'm talking about! How do you know exactly what happened. Were you there? Did you see it? You might believe you know what happened but there is no possible way that you actually 100% KNOW what happened Shalom thesorgo, There is a misunderstanding here of what KNOWING means. I can only speak for myself in saying that in the logical realm of the human mind, I don't know God. I can't prove God any more than you can disprove Him, yet my faith brings me a different kind of knowing, a knowledge that isn't logical, a knowledge that cannot prove anything yet a knowledge that works!! It brings me so much peace that I would go as far as to say..... I don't care if I can prove it or not, for me it is very real. So while it makes me sad you don't see this amazing gift and acknowledge it, it is your life to live and you have free choice to live it your way, to follow God's way or not. Halleluyah!! Ohhh. As an ex-christian, I know the comfort that not having to think about it gives but to me it was just a false hope. I respect you not trying to preach to me and so I won't to you but I just wanted you to know where I'm coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hupo Posted July 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,055 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/12/1944 Share Posted July 15, 2007 I think it tanks more "pride of self" to say you know exactly who or what happened to create the universe than it does to accept the fact that there might be something else that happened That's the thing...we DO know how it happened. It has nothing to do with pride, but because we know the creator. That's exactly what I'm talking about! How do you know exactly what happened. Were you there? Did you see it? You might believe you know what happened but there is no possible way that you actually 100% KNOW what happened Shalom thesorgo, There is a misunderstanding here of what KNOWING means. I can only speak for myself in saying that in the logical realm of the human mind, I don't know God. I can't prove God any more than you can disprove Him, yet my faith brings me a different kind of knowing, a knowledge that isn't logical, a knowledge that cannot prove anything yet a knowledge that works!! It brings me so much peace that I would go as far as to say..... I don't care if I can prove it or not, for me it is very real. So while it makes me sad you don't see this amazing gift and acknowledge it, it is your life to live and you have free choice to live it your way, to follow God's way or not. Halleluyah!! Ohhh. As an ex-christian, I know the comfort that not having to think about it gives but to me it was just a false hope. I respect you not trying to preach to me and so I won't to you but I just wanted you to know where I'm coming from. I think I see where you are coming from, I just don't see it the way you do, is all, but.....we have our free choice Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AV1611_USER Posted July 15, 2007 Share Posted July 15, 2007 Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there. It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesorgo Posted July 15, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 89 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/10/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2007 Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there. It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist. It is incredibaly logical as nothing I have seen heard or learned has pointed to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
None Posted July 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,513 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/01/1908 Share Posted July 15, 2007 Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there. It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist. Exactly. Ohhh. As an ex-christian, I know the comfort that not having to think about it gives but to me it was just a false hope. It's lazier to believe their isn't a God because then you excuse yourself from the obligation to do what's right as well as seek Him out. When you search for God, you will find Him. When you live for God He will bless you for it and show Himself to you. If you DON'T search for God, you're going to meet up with Him anyway, whether you wanted to or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AV1611_USER Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there. It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist. It is incredibaly logical as nothing I have seen heard or learned has pointed to God. that's because you have a defect in your perception. God has revealed Himself and NO ONE is without excuse. It actually takes more faith not to believe in God, because you're left with ideas that don't work. Edited July 16, 2007 by AV1611_USER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetiggerroo Posted July 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 241 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/27/1962 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Have you ever thought that GOD doesn't believe in atheists? What I find amusing is just how many atheists come to Christian forums, to prove there is no GOD...when in fact there is a GOD, and HE has a sense of humor...that is why he keeps sending ya'll. So, maybe, just maybe, there is a GOD, afterall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hupo Posted July 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,055 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/12/1944 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there. It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist. hehehe.... I love your mental acrobatics AV Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hupo Posted July 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,055 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/19/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/12/1944 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there. It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist. It is incredibaly logical as nothing I have seen heard or learned has pointed to God. I could totally agree with you if you just added the word "yet" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLW001 Posted July 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 16, 2007 I have a little thought experiement I would like to recommend to anyone who doubts the existence of a creator. Think about what it is in the physical world that allows you to tell if time is going forward or backward. Bear with me. Is there a reason for time to flow only forward and not ebb back and forth or jump around? Why do junked cars not spontaneously fall back into working order or broken dishes not simply fall back together? As a matter of fact spontaneous processes are the reason we see time as flowing in one direction. Rust forms from iron that is exposed to oxygen. Why doesn't iron ore form oxygen, slag and pure iron spontaneously? I think its safe to say that everyone can agree that there is a preferred direction of time in the universe. By saying this I am indicating that certain events are spontaneous, while others are not. So we see a preference for some event to occur. In engineering, this is called design. vehicles do not simply spontaneously form. An engineer must design the vehicle and we must do work on matter in order to build a car. We know that someone did work and someone designed the car because we see the car and by what we know about spontaneous processes, we know that cars do not happen spontaneously. When we look at the natural world, design is apparent. Birds fly, animals walk, fish swim and by the nature of these things we see a design. There is a process that takes place within the womb of a mother than takes matter and forms it into an object that has design. The process that occurs within a womb does not happen spontaneously. If it did, creatures would suddenly appear from the ground or trees would suddenly form from the CO2, O2, H2, and minerals in the ground. This just doesn't happen. In order for some process to be "spontaneous" it must occur without outside interference or it must happen without the input of effort or energy. Energy, interference, or what we call design, is required for something to happen that is not spontaneous. Another aspect of spontaneous occurences is that they repeat. If iron metal comes into the presence of O2, you will form rust. This process occurs repeatedly, without interference, However, rust does not repeatedly turn into iron and O2 without outside interference. So, if animal ever spontaneously formed, they would still be spontaneously forming. Lets go back one step further. If matter or energy ever spontaneously formed, then by what we know of spontaneous processes, they would still be spontaneously forming. THat's something to think about. For things to happen, that are not spontaneous, an outside action must take place and that action requires..............an actor. Now, I have only shown that there is good reason to believe in some outside actor that has designed and acted upon the universe and is still acting on the universe. I have not shown whether that actor is the cosmic wiz, buddha, allah or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But, the directional preference of time means that any man that considers the natural world around him must concluded that something is behind these processes that are non-spontaneous. Atheism is an indefensible position to take. You may say that you don't believe in Jesus Christ, but to say that something non-spontaneous occurs spontaneously requires an amount of faith greater than anything I can imagine. I believe that not only is there an actor outside of the universe that acts on the universe to order non-spontaneous events, but that this Actor must take an interest in His design and would communicate His plans to the cognizantaspect of His design. Not only that, but the life of Jesus Christ has convinced me that He and His Father and His Spirit are indeed that Actor. Don't listen to what other people say to you. Think for yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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