There is no god

[hupo]

I have a little thought experiement I would like to recommend to anyone who doubts the existence of a creator.

Think about what it is in the physical world that allows you to tell if time is going forward or backward. Bear with me. Is there a reason for time to flow only forward and not ebb back and forth or jump around? Why do junked cars not spontaneously fall back into working order or broken dishes not simply fall back together?

As a matter of fact spontaneous processes are the reason we see time as flowing in one direction. Rust forms from iron that is exposed to oxygen. Why doesn't iron ore form oxygen, slag and pure iron spontaneously?

I think its safe to say that everyone can agree that there is a preferred direction of time in the universe. By saying this I am indicating that certain events are spontaneous, while others are not. So we see a preference for some event to occur. In engineering, this is called design. vehicles do not simply spontaneously form. An engineer must design the vehicle and we must do work on matter in order to build a car. We know that someone did work and someone designed the car because we see the car and by what we know about spontaneous processes, we know that cars do not happen spontaneously.

When we look at the natural world, design is apparent. Birds fly, animals walk, fish swim and by the nature of these things we see a design. There is a process that takes place within the womb of a mother than takes matter and forms it into an object that has design. The process that occurs within a womb does not happen spontaneously. If it did, creatures would suddenly appear from the ground or trees would suddenly form from the CO2, O2, H2, and minerals in the ground. This just doesn't happen. In order for some process to be "spontaneous" it must occur without outside interference or it must happen without the input of effort or energy. Energy, interference, or what we call design, is required for something to happen that is not spontaneous.

Another aspect of spontaneous occurences is that they repeat. If iron metal comes into the presence of O2, you will form rust. This process occurs repeatedly, without interference, However, rust does not repeatedly turn into iron and O2 without outside interference. So, if animal ever spontaneously formed, they would still be spontaneously forming.

Lets go back one step further. If matter or energy ever spontaneously formed, then by what we know of spontaneous processes, they would still be spontaneously forming.

THat's something to think about. For things to happen, that are not spontaneous, an outside action must take place and that action requires..............an actor. Now, I have only shown that there is good reason to believe in some outside actor that has designed and acted upon the universe and is still acting on the universe. I have not shown whether that actor is the cosmic wiz, buddha, allah or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But, the directional preference of time means that any man that considers the natural world around him must concluded that something is behind these processes that are non-spontaneous.

Atheism is an indefensible position to take. You may say that you don't believe in Jesus Christ, but to say that something non-spontaneous occurs spontaneously requires an amount of faith greater than anything I can imagine.

I believe that not only is there an actor outside of the universe that acts on the universe to order non-spontaneous events, but that this Actor must take an interest in His design and would communicate His plans to the cognizantaspect of His design. Not only that, but the life of Jesus Christ has convinced me that He and His Father and His Spirit are indeed that Actor.

Don't listen to what other people say to you. Think for yourself!

Great post JLW

[thesorgo]

Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there.

It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist.

It is incredibaly logical as nothing I have seen heard or learned has pointed to God.

that's because you have a defect in your perception. God has revealed Himself and NO ONE is without excuse.

It actually takes more faith not to believe in God, because you're left with ideas that don't work.

First off, I don't kow what 'ideas' your talking about, but I assume you mean scientific ideas, such as gravity and kinetics , which have been tested hundreds maybe thousands of times by scientists of every nationalty and faith, including yours.

Oh, and thanks for calling defected. It's always a sure sign that someoneis running out of things to say when they start insulting

[thesorgo]

Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there.

It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist.

Exactly.

Ohhh. As an ex-christian, I know the comfort that not having to think about it gives but to me it was just a false hope.

It's lazier to believe their isn't a God because then you excuse yourself from the obligation to do what's right as well as seek Him out. When you search for God, you will find Him. When you live for God He will bless you for it and show Himself to you. If you DON'T search for God, you're going to meet up with Him anyway, whether you wanted to or not.

"It's lazier to believe their isn't a God because then you excuse yourself from the obligation to do what's right as well as seek Him out."

So you're saying that without God you would stop doing the right thing? I don't need faith to make me do the good and charitable thing. I have never felt the urge to steal or kill or adulter even if I knew I could get away with it because there was no strict guideline that tells me not to. As a matter of fact I volunteer at a soup kitchen once a month, something most christions are supposed to do, but don't.

[thesorgo]

I have a little thought experiement I would like to recommend to anyone who doubts the existence of a creator.

Think about what it is in the physical world that allows you to tell if time is going forward or backward. Bear with me. Is there a reason for time to flow only forward and not ebb back and forth or jump around? Why do junked cars not spontaneously fall back into working order or broken dishes not simply fall back together?

As a matter of fact spontaneous processes are the reason we see time as flowing in one direction. Rust forms from iron that is exposed to oxygen. Why doesn't iron ore form oxygen, slag and pure iron spontaneously?

I think its safe to say that everyone can agree that there is a preferred direction of time in the universe. By saying this I am indicating that certain events are spontaneous, while others are not. So we see a preference for some event to occur. In engineering, this is called design. vehicles do not simply spontaneously form. An engineer must design the vehicle and we must do work on matter in order to build a car. We know that someone did work and someone designed the car because we see the car and by what we know about spontaneous processes, we know that cars do not happen spontaneously.

When we look at the natural world, design is apparent. Birds fly, animals walk, fish swim and by the nature of these things we see a design. There is a process that takes place within the womb of a mother than takes matter and forms it into an object that has design. The process that occurs within a womb does not happen spontaneously. If it did, creatures would suddenly appear from the ground or trees would suddenly form from the CO2, O2, H2, and minerals in the ground. This just doesn't happen. In order for some process to be "spontaneous" it must occur without outside interference or it must happen without the input of effort or energy. Energy, interference, or what we call design, is required for something to happen that is not spontaneous.

Another aspect of spontaneous occurences is that they repeat. If iron metal comes into the presence of O2, you will form rust. This process occurs repeatedly, without interference, However, rust does not repeatedly turn into iron and O2 without outside interference. So, if animal ever spontaneously formed, they would still be spontaneously forming.

Lets go back one step further. If matter or energy ever spontaneously formed, then by what we know of spontaneous processes, they would still be spontaneously forming.

THat's something to think about. For things to happen, that are not spontaneous, an outside action must take place and that action requires..............an actor. Now, I have only shown that there is good reason to believe in some outside actor that has designed and acted upon the universe and is still acting on the universe. I have not shown whether that actor is the cosmic wiz, buddha, allah or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But, the directional preference of time means that any man that considers the natural world around him must concluded that something is behind these processes that are non-spontaneous.

Atheism is an indefensible position to take. You may say that you don't believe in Jesus Christ, but to say that something non-spontaneous occurs spontaneously requires an amount of faith greater than anything I can imagine.

I believe that not only is there an actor outside of the universe that acts on the universe to order non-spontaneous events, but that this Actor must take an interest in His design and would communicate His plans to the cognizantaspect of His design. Not only that, but the life of Jesus Christ has convinced me that He and His Father and His Spirit are indeed that Actor.

Don't listen to what other people say to you. Think for yourself!

I don't believe that the universe spontaneously came into being but I also don't believe that any God, whether it be Allah, God, or Ra (buddhism is atheistic in most forms) created it. I don't know what did. But if you look into a microscope you see cells and if you magnified that you'd see atoms, and if you magnified that you'd see protons and electrons and such and if you magnified them you'd see quarks. And if you keep magnifying you eventually see that the simplest forms of matter are created spontaneously.

Think for myself? Did you think christianity out by yourself or were you told. If noone told you anything about it, and you started wondering about cosmic beginnings, would you come to the conclusion that it was created by a supreme being whose son was born from a virgin and three days after he died he was resurrected and the floated up towards heaven? I think it is you who should think for themself.

[None]

So you're saying that without God you would stop doing the right thing?

No.

I don't need faith to make me do the good and charitable thing. I have never felt the urge to steal or kill or adulter even if I knew I could get away with it because there was no strict guideline that tells me not to.

Good for you. What about pride? Hate? Lust? Envy?

See, nonchristians don't want to believe these are sins but that there's nothing wrong with these "normal feelings". But these will have an effect on you one day, even before Judgement Day, because they are corrosive to your insides and will one day consume you.

As a matter of fact I volunteer at a soup kitchen once a month, something most christions are supposed to do, but don't.

I don't go around blowing a huge trumpet about what I do, that goes completely against what Jesus says.

He says when you brag about all the "good" you do, you recieve your reward here on earth and not in Heaven.

Personally, I'd like to give something back to Jesus when I see Him in Heaven one day. I know plenty of nonbelievers who "do good", and they feel no shame in telling everyone they meet, in fact, they make sure anyone and everyone hears them. They don't try to hide anything, not even a little. They see no logic in that, why? Because bragging rights is their motive.

[onetiggerroo]

Of course there is a GOD, HIS name is JEHOVAH JIRAH, my provider! And I believe in HIM, just as sure as there is oxygen in the air we breath. BTW, you can't see oxygen, but it is there, just like GOD is there waiting for you to accept HIM.

Edited July 17, 2007 by onetiggerroo

[tdrehfal]

Just because we don't see God does not mean he's not there.

It's not logical to deny God's existence. If you deny His existence, you are also saying that you have seen everything, heard everying, and know every fact and can say first-hand that there is no God; this does not work because this would make you omniscient, which would then make you God, so then God would exist.

Exactly.

Ohhh. As an ex-christian, I know the comfort that not having to think about it gives but to me it was just a false hope.

It's lazier to believe their isn't a God because then you excuse yourself from the obligation to do what's right as well as seek Him out. When you search for God, you will find Him. When you live for God He will bless you for it and show Himself to you. If you DON'T search for God, you're going to meet up with Him anyway, whether you wanted to or not.

"It's lazier to believe their isn't a God because then you excuse yourself from the obligation to do what's right as well as seek Him out."

So you're saying that without God you would stop doing the right thing? I don't need faith to make me do the good and charitable thing. I have never felt the urge to steal or kill or adulter even if I knew I could get away with it because there was no strict guideline that tells me not to. As a matter of fact I volunteer at a soup kitchen once a month, something most christions are supposed to do, but don't.

"I have never felt the hurge to steal or kill or adulter"... You've never once in your life hated, lusted, coveted, wanted to take something that wasn't yours,

been cruel to someone...

[Guest AV1611_USER]

Oh, and thanks for calling defected. It's always a sure sign that someoneis running out of things to say when they start insulting

It's not me who said it. It's God.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20 KJV)

The reason why you cannot see God is because you're blind to Him. The reason why you are blinded is because you have already rejected His existence; not because of any evidence, but because of your sin.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21 KJV)

Edited July 18, 2007 by AV1611_USER

[None]

Oh, and thanks for calling defected. It's always a sure sign that someoneis running out of things to say when they start insulting

It's not me who said it. It's God.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:20 KJV)

The reason why you cannot see God is because you're blind to Him. The reason why you are blinded is because you have already rejected His existence; not because of any evidence, but because of your sin.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21 KJV)

Keep in mind, many who are "blind" are also what's refered to as "sleeping". People talk a lot of gibberish in their sleep, professing to know what they do not know and deny what they should not deny. Jesus said, on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do..."

[thesorgo]

So you're saying that without God you would stop doing the right thing?

No.

I don't need faith to make me do the good and charitable thing. I have never felt the urge to steal or kill or adulter even if I knew I could get away with it because there was no strict guideline that tells me not to.

Good for you. What about pride? Hate? Lust? Envy?

See, nonchristians don't want to believe these are sins but that there's nothing wrong with these "normal feelings". But these will have an effect on you one day, even before Judgement Day, because they are corrosive to your insides and will one day consume you.

As a matter of fact I volunteer at a soup kitchen once a month, something most christions are supposed to do, but don't.

I don't go around blowing a huge trumpet about what I do, that goes completely against what Jesus says.

He says when you brag about all the "good" you do, you recieve your reward here on earth and not in Heaven.

Personally, I'd like to give something back to Jesus when I see Him in Heaven one day. I know plenty of nonbelievers who "do good", and they feel no shame in telling everyone they meet, in fact, they make sure anyone and everyone hears them. They don't try to hide anything, not even a little. They see no logic in that, why? Because bragging rights is their motive.

So you're saying that you've never felt any of those feelings before? I'm sure you have, but where you're mistaken is that 'non-christians' don't think these are alright. I would have included them in my list above but I thought everyone would get the jist of it. Appently not. So, while I am human, and have human urges, I do not condone excess amounts of any of the above traits in anyone. I did not come in here 'blowing the trumpet' but only brought it up because I was accused of using atheism as an excuse to be lazy and not do the good thing. I know plenty of christians who feel no shame to preach to others about how to do good to fellow man and love thy neighbor and be charitable but do nothing themselves.