War on Terrorism

[OneAccord]

I have to say that when I first found Jesus and starting seriously listening to Christians I was absolutely shocked. I just could not believe the pro-war rhetoric I was hearing. It just seemed totally contrary to what Jesus taught. And to be honest it still does, I have never gotten over it and assimiliated.

Matt 5:43 You have heard it said "you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy"

5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully persecute you.

5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?.........

How can you possibly justify a pro-war mentality in light of scriptures like these? And there are many more scriptures like these.

[OneAccord]

They would rather pour their money and resources into 'social' programs that keep failing.

Social programs that don't work? Like lower crime rates? Lower rate of homeless? Like cheaper medications and medical services? Are those the services that "don't work"?

And I don't see where God per se created this war. George W. Bush did. He is far from being God.

Thanks River for commenting on the coment about those nasty social programs. Honestly I can't understand this type of thinking, I just can't, it makes no sense to me, especially in the light of the red letters of Jesus in my Bible.

[Guest yod]

How can you possibly justify a pro-war mentality in light of scriptures like these? And there are many more scriptures like these.

OA you are characterizing this in a very negative way when you know that is not accurate.

"pro-war" implies we want war for the sake of death when the opposite is true. We fight to STOP murder.

We are "anti-evil" and not willing to ignore the cries of the innocent.

By the way.....it is a biblical commandment to defend the innocent.

Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed

Psalm 82:2 "How long will you defend the unjust

and show partiality to the wicked?

Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;

maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed

[Guest yod]

Social programs that don't work? Like lower crime rates? Lower rate of homeless? Like cheaper medications and medical services? Are those the services that "don't work"?

which social programs lower crime or the homeless?

Here is what you are missing. Many of these social programs are a good idea...maybe even done with the right motivation...but they have the opposite effect of what they are trying to accomplish. They exacerbate the problem.

For instance, welfare ravaged the black community because it took away any incentive for hard work. Why try if you can sit at home and receive a check? Before long you are mid to late 20's and you haven't entered the work force which means you are way behind those who have already gone up the chain of training (through hard work) and in management or ownership of companies.

The same thing with unemployment pay. There are too many people who will wait until that check runs out before they even go looking for a job. I did it when I was a kid. It's just human nature to "get by" instead of working.

And government interference in the health industry has caused prices to skyrocket artificially. If market forces were applied to the medical industry across the board, we would see doctors and hospitals competing for the dollars.

Instead we have artificially taken away any incentive for them to compete. All you have to do is compare our ailing medical system to a government system anywhere else to see that going to "social programs" is a big mistake.

don't even get me started on public education!!

[OneAccord]

How can you possibly justify a pro-war mentality in light of scriptures like these? And there are many more scriptures like these.

OA you are characterizing this in a very negative way when you know that is not accurate.

This sounds like newspeak to me--war is peace, killing them is more just than them killing us.

"pro-war" implies we want war for the sake of death when the opposite is true. We fight to STOP murder.

I don't consider pro-war to mean 'war for the sake of death'. For me it means promoting and justifying war as a means to solve problems rather than avoiding it at all costs and seeking other solutions.

We are "anti-evil" and not willing to ignore the cries of the innocent.

To me it looks like repaying evil with more evil, an eye for an eye. As for ignoring the cries of the innocent, there are lots and lots of innocents dying and being maimed by our actions, it seems we have a case of selective hearing regarding the cries of the innocents.

By the way.....it is a biblical commandment to defend the innocent.

Defend innocents by killing other innocents?? Besides there are other ways to defend innocent people than by making war.

Defending innocents could also be defending their rights to a peaceable existence.

Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed[/qutoe]

Are you suggesting that America is not guilty of bloodshed because the 9-11 crew was 'caught breaking in'? Do you ever wonder if 9-11 was a judgement from God against our nation?

Psalm 82:2 "How long will you defend the unjust

and show partiality to the wicked?

Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;

maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed

This scripture speaks nothing to me about war, but about maintaining human rights and justice, rather than propping up the rich and powerful who stand to make a good deal of money off this war, that's really who we're fighting for, while they sit in their corporate boardrooms keeping score.

Who in this war are the poor and oppressed, the weak and the fatherless???? America????

That's a wonderful scripture by the way. I am certainly willing to stand on that one.

[Work in Progress]

River, if you and OA actually believe the socialized health system in Canada, with it's long lines, people dieing waiting for operations, and very high tax rates, works, I'm sorry. It is has many, many problems. Many Canadians hate it - especially the ones who didn't or couldn't get access to that "great" system. If you believe that a godless society where everyone has to divvy up and remain 'equal', regardless of whether or not you pull your weight (in spite of what Scripture says about the work ethic), I'm sorry. If you believe in a society where saying something is 'wrong' will get you ticketed or arrested for a "hate crime", I'm sorry. Perhaps that wonderful system is where you ought to be to be happy.

YOD, keep talking. You are so right and dishonesty is not compatible with Christianity. Christians are all for social progams done God's way - compassion, caring and help, not hand out that enables sin. How dishonest to engage in political rhetoric about "hateful, intolerant, stingy, uncompassionate"....I will never understand that kind of stuff from people who claim to confess Christ. Very scary.

[Guest LadyC]

smasher, i said you lost credibility, and you did. not that you had any in the first place. it was STILL clinton's minions, HIS administration, that insisted there were wmd and that iraq was a threat. it was still bush's administration that decided 17 resolutions were 16 too many. i support bush in this war, and i would have supported clinton had he had the guts to actually follow through with his threats, despite my intense dislike for clinton.

i have tried to respect your opinions. but your hatred of america, and this administration, are very indicative of your anti-christian attitude.

in a previous post i told you i would not sit here and spout off all the rhetoric that i have heard about your country, because i know it's based (like all rhetoric) on about 10% truth and 90% spin, and suggested you might consider doing the same. however, your stubborn refusal to do so is telling of your basic nature. you have nothing good to say, you only want to run your mouth with ignorance. shame on you. your behavior is dispicable, and full of hypocrisy. take the plank out of your own eye before screaming your judgement on us.

for the record, hussein was quite happy, even if indirectly involved, or even if he was not involved at all, he was still quite happy that al qaida used our jetliners as WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

hussein himself was a weapon of mass destruction. look at all those graves over there of people murdered senselessly at his hand or at his order.

[OneAccord]

you have nothing good to say, you only want to run your mouth with ignorance. shame on you. your behavior is dispicable, and full of hypocrisy. take the plank out of your own eye before screaming your judgement on us.

Hey now, Brother Smash may have views that you disagree with but I have never seen him resort to character assassination as you are doing in order to make his point.

For the record there are plenty of Christians, even American Christians who share a smiliar viewpoint.

[Guest yod]

Who in this war are the poor and oppressed, the weak and the fatherless????

OA.....it is useless to have an honest discussion if you continue to ignore the facts.

We did not start this war. We are simply not waiting for slow death anymore. One last time....State sponsored terrorism and WMDs have forever changed the face of war. Which country is responsible for murdering over three thousand international citizens on 911? Kobar Towers? The Marine barracks of Beirut? The jews in Israel? I could go on for a few paragraphs of attacks against innocent people who were murdered and it brought no response.

Do you not care about those people? Why are you so selective in who gets to live and who doesn't? Why are wicked dictators deserving of peace or life?

We are not in Iraq or Afghanistan to fight innocent people. Those who are truly innocent have made it clear that they are grateful to be liberated from tyranny. Does that matter to you or will you continue to ignore this FACT?

America is not like any empire of the past. We go. We fight tyranny. We win. We rebuild. We leave.

It is the brutal who cause violence to occur in the first place. In defense, we must counter them with overwhelming violence. These people do not respond to nice words and flowers. They lie to achieve more territorial goals from the gullible who want to "negotiate".

Are you really that naive?

[Work in Progress]

I think that is a very appropos word, Yod.

Lady, you are right, IMO, in your assessment of Idolsmasher's posts. However, I don't think it will change anything. Idolsmasher and those like him are a tool IMO. Hope I'm wrong.