Self Defense

[Eliyahuw]

I do think it does come down to the heart.

Are you angry or scared when you are defending yourself? When is defense really needed and when is walking away the right path (which is 95% of the time for a Christian). Are we being tough are we afraid we will be seen as weak and is that the reason we are using violence? If it is we are not in Christ. Remember we are to be seen as a gentle people, blameless and harmless; we are to love our enemies. Christians will often be called weak because we don

[larryt]

I don't think there is anything wrong with defending yourself. I had a guy come up to me in our Walmart parking lot one day and put his hand my shoulder. He wanted money. I told him if he didnt' get away I would drop him like yesterdays lunch. He left. I shook all the way home.

Did you ever think to share the gospel with him?

LT

Frankly, I would've been too scared and too ticked off to think of that. I'm sorry, but it's true. Besides, I sincerely doubt the guy would've been receptive.

Maybe YOU could've shared the gospel with him, but then, you're a guy, so he probably wouldn't have approached you in the first place, and if he had, he would have been a little more cautious with you.

Hi Iryssa,

What do the following verses have to deal with.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

If you are born again why should you fear/be scared?

LT

Because theres some sick sorry lowlifes out there that would attack a woman alone. thats what she has to fear. these same sick lowlifes don't care what God has to say. She had every reason to be scared with the way things happen now days.

So you weren't a sick sorry low life before you were saved?

LT

[larryt]

So shoot me for fearing for my life if I'm approached by a guy twice my size who could easily

- Rape me

- Kill me

- Do other horrible things to me

You have taken those verse out of context. Context, context, context, people! It's the FIRST rule of interpretation.

In Romans 8, the surrounding verses are talking about fearing for SPIRITUAL LIFE, not about muggers.

In 2 Timothy 1, he's talking about being bold in his witness and in the laying on of hands.

In 1 John 4, what is being addressed--AGAIN--is spiritual fear.

Nope, I'm not afraid that I will die and then go to hell. I do, however, have a HEALTHY fear of being mugged, raped, shot, beaten, etc. etc. etc. by some random, wanton criminal on the streets. Does that make me crazy--or worse--faithless?? Not in the least. It makes me wise to my surroundings and it means I know what the outcome of such situations would be.

If I were to go out onto the city streets at night alone, in a bad part of town saying "God will protect me!" that's not faith, that's called playing Russian Roulette with your life...and I think God expects us to use our brains more than that.

Iryssa,

I'm not trying to shoot the wounded soldiers. And yes there are horrible people out there. And Paul says that some in the congregation of the righteous were pretty horrible before they were saved.

In Rom. 8 Paul begins to tell us how to live out the new life in Christ. Notice how often Paul refers to living, life, walk, think, and then in vs 17 he brings up SUFFERING, which is not to be conpared to the glory that will be revealed in us. Then he ends the chapter with:

Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

I think persecution, peril, and sword fall into the category of horrible prospects.

In 2 Tim. 1:7-8 Paul is referring to fear as it relates to the afflictions of the Gospel. What are the afflictions that Paul is referring to. I think he gives a synopsis in:

2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.

2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

2Co 11:26 [in] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;

2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

An then what is spiritual fear as you put it? 1John 4 tells us how love is the most important attribute. But what is LOVE. I guess love is just a spiritual feeling that is replaced by fear when we don't love. NOT.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

LT

[Iryssa]

So shoot me for fearing for my life if I'm approached by a guy twice my size who could easily

- Rape me

- Kill me

- Do other horrible things to me

You have taken those verse out of context. Context, context, context, people! It's the FIRST rule of interpretation.

In Romans 8, the surrounding verses are talking about fearing for SPIRITUAL LIFE, not about muggers.

In 2 Timothy 1, he's talking about being bold in his witness and in the laying on of hands.

In 1 John 4, what is being addressed--AGAIN--is spiritual fear.

Nope, I'm not afraid that I will die and then go to hell. I do, however, have a HEALTHY fear of being mugged, raped, shot, beaten, etc. etc. etc. by some random, wanton criminal on the streets. Does that make me crazy--or worse--faithless?? Not in the least. It makes me wise to my surroundings and it means I know what the outcome of such situations would be.

If I were to go out onto the city streets at night alone, in a bad part of town saying "God will protect me!" that's not faith, that's called playing Russian Roulette with your life...and I think God expects us to use our brains more than that.

Iryssa,

I'm not trying to shoot the wounded soldiers. And yes there are horrible people out there. And Paul says that some in the congregation of the righteous were pretty horrible before they were saved.

In Rom. 8 Paul begins to tell us how to live out the new life in Christ. Notice how often Paul refers to living, life, walk, think, and then in vs 17 he brings up SUFFERING, which is not to be conpared to the glory that will be revealed in us. Then he ends the chapter with:

Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

I think persecution, peril, and sword fall into the category of horrible prospects.

In 2 Tim. 1:7-8 Paul is referring to fear as it relates to the afflictions of the Gospel. What are the afflictions that Paul is referring to. I think he gives a synopsis in:

2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.

2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

2Co 11:26 [in] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;

2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

An then what is spiritual fear as you put it?

What I meant by "spiritual fear" is fear that peril, persecution, or famine WOULD separate me from the love of Christ...that is what I don't have. I fear for my life, not my spiritual life. I thought I made that clear, but I'm sorry if I didn't.

As I've said before, persecution and suffering for the sake of Christ is one thing. That I would lay down my life without protest for (at least I hope I would...I can't say I've ever actually been in a situation that would bring about that decision, so all I can say is "I hope I would"). Being shot or raped for some random, derranged criminal is another thing entirely.

1John 4 tells us how love is the most important attribute. But what is LOVE. I guess love is just a spiritual feeling that is replaced by fear when we don't love. NOT.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

LT

I'm not really sure how this part fits at all...I'm not saying I disagree, but you may need to fill in the blanks of that logical leap with the thought process you went through to get there.

[methinkshe]

Do you not understand the glorious liberty you have in Christ? There is no wrong or right, there is only faith in the Lord Jesus or lack of faith in the Lord Jesus. Anything you do in faith is righteous and anything done without faith is sin. Therefore, it is the Holy Spirit that guides each one of us according to circumstances. What is sin for you, because it is done without faith, is righteousness for me, because I do it in faith, and vice versa. As Paul said about eating food sacrificed to idols: if it bothers your conscience (the Holy Spirit in you) not a whit, then to you it is not sin. If your conscience (the Holy Spirit in you) is troubled, then to you it IS sin.

In Jesus

Ruth

confused.

Are you saying you can commit adultery 'in faith' and therefore it is 'righteous' ?

The food thing may or may not be defined as 'sin' innately, so it may or may not be related to other acts that ARE defined as sin in His word....such as adultery.

Methinkshe is talking about matters which are disputable in nature. Adultery is obviously wrong, there's a clear commandment about it. Things like what food and drink are allowable are more disputable issues.

Anyone who is in Christ is a new creation - born of the Spirit and no longer a slave to sin (a condition inherited from Adam). Whereas in our flesh we can do no good thing, when we "walk in the Spirit" we can do no evil thing. As unbelievers we were spiritually dead. We had no choice but to follow the desires of the flesh. It is impossible for an unbeliever to perform any good work, i.e. one that is acceptable to the Father, because even an unbeliever's apparently good works are contaminated by Adam's sin, imputed to all men; as Isaiah says: all your good deeds are as filthy rags. Likewise, it is impossible to corrupt the new spiritual creation you are in Jesus. Thus, as a believer your actions are either of the flesh (which is counted dead in Christ and therefore of no importance in the eternal scheme of things, albeit fleshly actions will compromise your fellowship with Jesus whilst you remain in your physical body) or of the Spirit. Whilst you were dead in your sins, you could not help but perform evil works. Now you are spiritually alive in Christ, you have a choice: to follow the dead flesh or to walk in the Spirit. Therefore, if the Spirit is guiding the believer to preach the gospel to a would-be assailant, to him it would be sin to ignore the Spirit and offer violence. However, if the Spirit is guiding the believer to defend himself against the attack of a would-be assailant, to him it is not sin to respond with physical force. For the believer, it is not the act itself that determines whether it is a good or evil act, but the source of the action. Is it an act of the flesh or an act of the Spirit? For the unbeliever, ALL his actions are evil. Now, we know from Scripture that the Holy Spirit will not guide a believer to commit adultery - God does not act against Himself. As Jesus said, a Kingdom divided against itself will fall. Therefore we can always be certain that the Holy Spirit will not guide a believer to commit adultery. But, as Iryssa says, the Bible doesn't spell out every single situation that could ever be experienced by men. This is what Paul was speaking of when he taught re food sacrificed to idols. He further taught that whatever we do should not cause a brother to stumble. So how can we as believers know whether, at any given moment, we are walking in the flesh or in the Spirit? Isaiah 30:21 "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." It is only believers who hear the voice of the Spirit and for me, personally, such decisions are usually characterised by clearly recognising a choice to do this thing or that thing alongside a deep-seated conviction that one way would be denying the leading of the Spirit, and the other way would be following His guidance. One action leaves me feeling peaceful and the other leaves me knowing that I have deliberately and knowingly chosen to go the opposite way to which the Spirit is leading. On those occasions, I move out of fellowship with Jesus and have to repent of my actions to restore that fellowship. ALL sin actually boils down to unbelief in who God is and what He does. When we disagree with God's revelation of Himself through the Scripture, or through the indwelling Holy Spirit whose work is to guide into all truth, then we sin against God. But God-in-us, through His Spirit, cannot sin against Himself - hence the incorruptibility of our new creation in Christ. But that doesn't stop us, on occasions, from returning to the dead works of the flesh.

Sorry, I have rambled on a bit. In short, what I am trying to say is that it is the SOURCE of the works (actions) that determines whether they are good or evil. Works of the flesh are always evil, and the works of the Holy Spirit in union with the believer, are always good.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Smalcald]

sorry smalclad, but i have a very difficult time trying to picture anyone, whether Christian or not, taking pleasure at having to defend their life.

Hi LadyC I know several male Christian's who take special pleasure in talking about how tough they are and how many guns they own and how they would love to "cap" someone always in self defense of course and always some nameless "scum". It is usually couched in the self defense excuse, but if you look just a little below the surface you see the glee in feeling a false sense of power and machismo that their weapons give them. They think they enjoy violence. I don't think it is a Christian attitude it is certainly not an attitude of Christ who we are to model. It is an attitude of the world, of glorifying violence, of glorifying being tough in the eyes of the world. Our strength comes from the Spirit. There is not ONE single example of Christians in scripture using violence, not one. They were attacked, they were tormented they were executed, and yet not a single time do we read about them arming themselves and killing their enemies. Like I have said many times I own guns and I believe in self defense in extreme situations, and I would use violence against someone attacking my family or my home. But as Christians we are not to have a heart of hate and violence, even if we are called as a very last resort to hurt someone, we should never enjoy it or brag about it. Christians should never be seen as violent people, in fact as men we should get used to being mocked as wimpy because we will always walk away from a fight unless we are attacked first, this is what the world believes about those who won

[Metropolitan]

I am often surprised to find many Christians who do not believe in God's power to do other things. They do not say this, but it is reflected in their attitudes and comments. There are half a dozen verses in the New Testament that use the phrase, "God is able." It is helpful to think about what is stated in those verses:

There is that well-known one in the 24th verse of Jude, "God is able to keep you from falling." I wonder how many Christians really believe that God is able to keep you from falling? I find a number who seem to reflect the attitude that God is not able to do this, that there are circumstances they can get into from which he is not able to deliver them and that there are pressures that are too great for them to bear and God cannot help them. This is reflected in what they say: "I can't help myself, I have to do this thing." "I lose my temper and I can't help it." Or, "I get subjected to pressure and after awhile I can't stand it any more. I give up." Which means, of course, that they do not believe that God is able to keep them from falling. But the Scripture says he is. He is able to keep us from falling.

They think that the blessings of the Christian life are designed to make them happy. They always want a good feeling. That is why some people come to church. They only want a good feeling, something that makes them feel a little better as they go out, and they are satisfied if it has done that for them. Some want a riot of emotionalism, to work up a sort of religious "jag" once a week, which will serve to carry them until the next week. But this is not what God is aiming at. It is that you may be involved in doing good works, as the Lord Jesus, who "went about doing good," {Acts 10:38}. That was his purpose. That will involve speaking the truth, and practicing love, self-denying love, toward another. Thats what we as Christians should portray ourselves to the world

And thats why I agree with Smalcald "Remember we are to be seen as a gentle people, blameless and harmless; we are to love our enemies. Christians will often be called weak because we don

[graymousey]

To he original poster:

The Lord Jesus, whenever they wanted to stone Him, He walked away.

As of me, I would do likewise, but I would run as fast as I can, while praying that Lord help me, save me...

[larryt]

I'm not really sure how this part fits at all...I'm not saying I disagree, but you may need to fill in the blanks of that logical leap with the thought process you went through to get there.

In order for me to fill in the blanks let me ask a question.

Does anything, again DOES ANYTHING happen by chance or random? Very important question.

LT

[Eliyahuw]

I don't think there is anything wrong with defending yourself. I had a guy come up to me in our Walmart parking lot one day and put his hand my shoulder. He wanted money. I told him if he didnt' get away I would drop him like yesterdays lunch. He left. I shook all the way home.

Did you ever think to share the gospel with him?

LT

Frankly, I would've been too scared and too ticked off to think of that. I'm sorry, but it's true. Besides, I sincerely doubt the guy would've been receptive.

Maybe YOU could've shared the gospel with him, but then, you're a guy, so he probably wouldn't have approached you in the first place, and if he had, he would have been a little more cautious with you.

Hi Iryssa,

What do the following verses have to deal with.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

If you are born again why should you fear/be scared?

LT

Because theres some sick sorry lowlifes out there that would attack a woman alone. thats what she has to fear. these same sick lowlifes don't care what God has to say. She had every reason to be scared with the way things happen now days.

So you weren't a sick sorry low life before you were saved?

LT

No i wasn't.