MK202002 Posted May 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 you seem to miss an important distinction. Christ came to earth for the purpose of being slaughtered by maniacs so that we could have eternal life. the disciples who died at the hands of maniacs died for their faith. we aren't called to die just because some evil idiot wants to pump lead into us, or slit our throats, or whatever, just for the fun of seeing someone die, or in the process of stealing us blind, or any of that. there is only one instance where we are called to lay down our lives willingly... and that is for the sake of standing up for Jesus. or: John 15:13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. or: 1 John 3:16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MK202002 Posted May 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 286 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 larry, by your question i'm assuming that you are implying that it is impossible for a true christian to be a victim of murder? is that really what you're saying? more sitting from your perch and judging another's salvation again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathstar 80 Posted May 2, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 107 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/06/1990 Share Posted May 2, 2007 I think self-defense is right to do. You look in the old testament, and it talks about Jews fighting a lot in self defense from other enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoMike Posted May 2, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/27/1964 Share Posted May 2, 2007 you seem to miss an important distinction. Christ came to earth for the purpose of being slaughtered by maniacs so that we could have eternal life. the disciples who died at the hands of maniacs died for their faith. we aren't called to die just because some evil idiot wants to pump lead into us, or slit our throats, or whatever, just for the fun of seeing someone die, or in the process of stealing us blind, or any of that. there is only one instance where we are called to lay down our lives willingly... and that is for the sake of standing up for Jesus. or: John 15:13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. or: 1 John 3:16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. I believe you are being unnecessarily picky; you are saying pretty much what LadyC is saying. Laying your life down for your friends as Jesus did suggests dying for the sake of the Gospel, NOT allowing yourself to be taken advantage of by a gang of thugs just being mean. Read the verses in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted May 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted May 3, 2007 What real christian would be killed by some random act by a criminal with no idea of his/her beliefs? LT Several months ago, Cathrine johnston was murdered by 3 police officers bursting into her home. they shot over 100 rounds to take out a 98 year old christian woman. Her murderers are going to get off scott free with a plea deal from the DA, lessing the crime to manslaughter instead of Murder. They didn't know hwer beliefs, they didn't know the woman at all. They just broke down her door in the middle of the night guns blazing when she defended herself from what she thought was gang members trying to break in. The officers that murdered her tried to impune her character by planting dope in her home and making it look like she was a drug dealer. All I have to base my response on is your rendition of the event but if it is accurate it proves Christ's statement that "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." I believe God's word and can only conclude if she had not defended herself she might not have died. If she truly was a believer she is with the Lord now though. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted May 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Being killed for your beliefs is martyrdom. THAT'S what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 16. Allowing yourself to be killed by some random criminal with no idea what your beliefs are isn't. Here is a question for you. It is provocative but let it provoke thinking. What real christian would be killed by some random act by a criminal with no idea of his/her beliefs? Keep in mind that ALL THINGS work together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose.(Rom. 8:28) LT Really, isn't that a question for one of the forknowledge/predestination threads? I don't believe that God -causes- bad things to happen. Sometimes, thanks to the fallenness of our world and the evil that is rampant throughout, random evil happens. To suggest that someone who is randomly killed in this world isn't "Christian" enough is either naive or just ignorant. Sorry, Larry. I often agree with your posts, but certainly not here. rtwo, why have you drawn these conclusions about my question? I just asked a question and did not imply that someone is christian or not. My Question has more to do with events being random/chance or fitting in the purpose and will of God. In my life I know that all the happens to me especially and essentially to everyone is for a purpose. It is either to forward the kingdom of God or the kingdom of the devil(which is ultimately itself furthering the kingdom of God). In the post about Catherine Johnston I have to believe that if she had been looking for an opportunity to tell whoever God sent to her the Gospel and not try to save her life (Jesus said the he who saves his life shall loose and he at loosed his life shall find it) she might have lived or really been martyred. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted May 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted May 3, 2007 larry, by your question i'm assuming that you are implying that it is impossible for a true christian to be a victim of murder? is that really what you're saying? more sitting from your perch and judging another's salvation again? Why is it that you read so much into the question I posted? You must think that Paul was sitting on a perch judging anothers salvation also. Here's what he said. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? You really have me all wrong. My only purpose is to exhort those that think they are christians to examine themselves. To make sure they are christians. And examine themselves by God's word and God's word alone. It will be a sorry day for many when Jesus says "I never knew you" to many that think they are believers. Is it not better to err on the side of caution? Should not we all approach the throne with fear and trembling even though we are commanded to come boldly? LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted May 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Still pondering this myself. What do you guys think? And remember SELF defense. I'm not talking about defending anyone else. Based on the answer, I would have to change my mind on a lot of things. It's a serios thing, don't you think? This is something I've thought a lot about. There was a group of missionaries (I think it was the group that "End of the SPear" was based on) who brought rifles for the sake of hunting, but not for defense. As one told his wife, he was prepared for death and eternity, while those to whom he was going to speak were not. I believe this same attitude ought to be taken when it comes to self defense. My soul is prepared, and death is not a threat to me... but my killing of another to save my own life -will- condemn him, if he isn't saved (and I think it's safe to assume, if you are in a position where "self defense" is an option, he probably isn't). And let's not forget the words of Jesus: "whoever would save his life will lose it..." Having said that, I do draw distinction between this and home and family defense, as well as national defense. I think every American citizen ought to own a gun, and be willing to fight to defend his family and his neigbors. WhaT??? Are you nuts! If someone wants to attack me and try to kill me, he's going to be taking the great celestial dirt nap before he realizes it. IF he isn't prepared to meet God then thats his problem. I have family that depends on me being alive and i am not going to be the one whos dying for a lowlife scumbag I can understand that; but I can't help but feel grateful Jesus didn't have the same attitude. You are forgetting that Jesus did escape death until it was the time appointed Him by His Father. He supernaturally defended himself. And if one is really IN CHRIST will not Christ supernaturally defend us? He has on numerous occasions in my life. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted May 3, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I am with you dude! You know I dont need a sword at all. The Word is sharper than any two edged sword, or any two swords. I just carry the sword of the Lord in my heart and fear not! Luke 22 passage Jesus does tell his disciples to get a sword. Jesus knew that now was the time when Jesus would be threatened (and later killed) and his followers would be threatened as well. Jesus was giving approval of the fact that one has the right to defend himself. In v. 38 he says that two swords are enough and his reaction may be one of disgust that the disciples took things so literally. Then in v. 51 he chastises one of the disciples for using the sword. This is hardly firm ground to make your argument from, especially when you consider that two swords would not defend 12 men all that well. Moreover, we never hear of the apostles fighting off their attackers. They lay down their lives or escape. Note that I am not arguing against self-defense but Luke 22 does not address the issue. I would say that self-defense and especially lethal force should be a last resort. I believe in divine protection. However is it not strange that God made Israel fight its own wars. He did not fight them for them. He would intervene, but action on their part was always required. Faith must have corresponding action. There are also time when God did not allow Israel to take action but insisted that they just watch the salvation of the Lord. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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