Can someone be a "saved" Christian and give merit to evoluti

[4Pillars]

It's simple to know if one's interpretation is correct. If it agrees with God's Holy Word, true Science, and History, it's as close to the One Truth as is Humanly possible.

When you find the One Truth, you will see that the One Truth agrees with every other discovered Truth. There is Not one Truth for Christians, and one for Scientists. When you find God's Truth, it agrees exactly with both.

The fault is Not with God's Truth, but with man's ability to understand it, for His thoughts are far above man's thoughts.

God Bless

[Tubal-Cain]

HE, you mix metaphysics and science. The points I am arguing for all deal with the science and have nothing to do with metaphysics. Quite frankly, I disagree with your opinion on what you call "theistic-Darwinists" and I also disagree with the words of Provine and Monod. The very beliefs I hold show them to be false (not to mention the beliefs of countless other theistic evolutionists). I am quite able to discuss the science of evolution without discussing metaphysics. If you think it cannot be done then that is your problem. At every turn it has been you who has pushed godless Darwinism into the discussion, not I.

I've provided the transitional fossils for reptile-to-bird evolution. At this time, mutation and natural selection explain that evolution better than any scientific theories your camp can come up with. If you disagree with my examples of mutation causing "new and complex genetic information" then please go through each example and explain exactly why it is not a good example. It seems that you are asking for an example where a scientist sat in a lab for millions of years and watched reptiles evolve into birds. Of course this is not possible. But the fossil record shows such an evolution.

The preponderance of evidence for common descent can be found here: 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution.

Regarding my religious beliefs, I don't think the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is historical. I merely believe there was a first human, who we may call Adam or Eve for convenience's sake. Physical death is a natural process. The death spoken of by Paul in Romans 5 is spiritual death. Monod is essentially noting the problem of evil. But the problem of evil exists whether or not evolution is true. A disbelief in evolution does not make the problem go away. Bozarth makes a pathetic argument. He ignores the fact that all sin and hence there is a need for all to be redeemed by Christ.

[Special Creation]

If someone gives merit to what science has to say when it comes to evolution are they lost? If not, why would Christians choose to fight about this issue when the issue of salvation through Christ is our main goal? Why take the risk of losing your chance to help someone find the path to salvation?

Do some Christians choose to protect the wrong message?

Are there majors and minors when it comes to the Christian message?

It seems the main question Jesus asked was, "Who do you say I am ?"

My old boss had saying "Kill 'em all but six and use them for pallbearers". Is that the approach we are taking at times? Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers."

I truly am searching here. There's little sarcasm or pretense in my questions.

For the record, anyone who has been here long enough knows my position on evolution.

I've not had the opportunity to read through 11 pages of responses, but I wanted to touch base on this question as it is a valid one.

If someone gives merit to what science has to say when it comes to evolution are they lost?

No, they are not lost. But they are ignorant of scripture. I do not say that in a harsh manner. I was once ignorant of scripture as well when it came to origins. Simply put, Genesis 1:1 states God made the heaven and earth at the beginning. Matthew 19:3 has Jesus stating that Adam and Eve were made at the beginning as well. It is pretty straight forward, everything was made during the first 6 days as stated in the Bible. One is free to believe, disregard or ignore that information. But I figure Jesus should know since He is God and was the one that made everything. He should know. The dates in the Bible date back to about 6000 years ago, give or take. Jewish calender says the same thing. No room for 'billions and billions'. The church compromised in the late 19th century with unscriptural things like the gap theory which wasn't thought up till the late 1800's anyway.

If not, why would Christians choose to fight about this issue when the issue of salvation through Christ is our main goal? Why take the risk of losing your chance to help someone find the path to salvation?

Do some Christians choose to protect the wrong message?

Untold numbers of people have come to salvation through this message. Many Christians are confused about the topic and don't have a good answer for those seeking. The Bible is clear, we're always to have a good answer. Are there those that choose not to believe? Unfortunately yes. But remember, many can't see the truth of Scripture for the same reason a thief cannot see a policeman...they aren't really looking.

It seems the main question Jesus asked was, "Who do you say I am ?"

He is God, Lord of Lords, King of Kings and creator of the universe. He spoke creation into existence i.e. 'universe' means 'single spoken word'. He states clearly he created the heaven, earth, Adam and Eve and everything else during the first 6 days. The Hebrew word for 'day' is 'yom' which in the context given in te O.T. means a literal 24 hour period of time i.e. the evening and the morning were the first/second/third etc day.

So a professing Christian has a simple choice; Believe Christ who is God or not believe. I've made my choice personally, I believe the Bible is God's Word and is true.

How about you?

[Tubal-Cain]

Neo-Darwinism goes well beyond the boundaries of science and maintains a religious-like dogma that evolution fueled by random mutation and guided by blind natural selection has the power to create new and complex information that result in new organs and new body parts that can morph one species into another species over a long period of time. It is this assumption that removes Darwinian evolution from science and transfers it into the metaphysical zone.

But the ToE is not based on an assumption. It is based on the observations of mutations, natural selection, and the fossil record.

Any theistic view of the world is fundamentally at odds with the mind-set and worldview of evolutionary biologists, thus when you foolishly believe you can endorse some vague

[Tubal-Cain]

HE, I have a question. Earlier you said that if scientists could create life from inanimate matter that it would not effect your faith. On the other hand, you seem to think that theistic evolution is somehow problematic.

If you were convinced that ToE and common descent were true and that there was not a literal Garden of Eden and global flood how would that effect your faith? Why?

[Tubal-Cain]

HE, there's not much point continuing the discussion as you perpetually interject Darwinism/naturalism into the discussion when I don't subscribe to such beliefs. Moreover, you aren't even dealing with the evidence at this point but just quoting people (which doesn't prove anything). I've presented my evidence so the reader is free to read it for themselves.

[Guest]

Jesus The Creator

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-3

The Father of Lies - No Creation

God The Creator

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:26-27

Satan's Sock Puppets - Ape-man Animal

Oh This Hurts!

.....weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Psalms 30:5

My Brother Is Deceived.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 4:14

My Brother Calls Holy Writ A Lie.

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jude 1:17-19

My Brother Calls A Lie Holy Writ.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

John 8:42-45

My Brother Is Ashamed Of Jesus The Creator.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:32-33

My brother Is Teaching Another Jesus.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4

The Bible Is Truth

The Teacher Of Lies - Is he a Brother?

The Teacher Of Lies - Is he Satan's Sock Puppet?

Have I Believed These Lies - Yes

Did My Lord Correct My Heart - Yes

Will My Lord Correct My Brother - Yes

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:12-13

Hope For My Brother And For All My Brothers-To-Be.

Hosanna!

Hallelujah!

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

Love, Joe

[Guest]

It is sinful.

You tell him Myco, you tell him.

How dare Brother Horizioneast fail to talk about a man's rejection of The Lord Jesus Christ.

And on a "science" thread no less.

But perhaps you are correct and we should talk about sin..

If you do not mind terribly, I'll just skip Mr. Gee's spiritual condition and man's opinion and look into God's Holy Word.

I see you know my Dear Brother horizoneast is a sinner.

Did you know All sin is against The Lord.

Our Shame

We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Jeremiah 3:25

Did you know even you and I are sinners?

Hard to believe huh.

All Sin

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:12

Sin is work and earns a paycheck.

Wages

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23

The Gift

God's Love

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

Light's On

Your Door

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:20

Myco See Jesus And Live - Be Blessed

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Guest]

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:11

Horizon, the horse lineage, whether 'proof' of common ancestry or not, fits a lot better with evolution than creation. somehow use it for the creation model.....

A Horse Of Course

Eyes Wide Open

And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

2 Kings 6:17

Our Trust

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Psalms 20:7

God

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

Softly

......To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hebrews 4:7

Open

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:30

Know God

Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Psalms 46:10

Jesus Said

Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Luke 7:22

All God's Children Say

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[methinkshe]

May I just return to the OP and ask a question of those who believe that the evolution of man and woman from a simple organism via fish, reptile, bird, mammal, etc., is compatible with believing in the Creator God revealed in the Bible?

Do you believe that Allah is one and the same as the God revealed in the Bible? I hope the answer is a resounding "no!" Why, because the words and actions attributed to Allah in the Koran reveal a character diametrically opposed to the Creator God of the Bible. Here's just one example - there are many - quoted from THIS link.

"God, as revealed in the Bible, is a God of love who cares for and desires the best for His creations. He is merciful, full of grace and compassion, and seeks to restore a humanity alienated from him by sin. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) We are told in the Bible that God does not desire the damnation of any soul, but wants all to come to Him through Christ for forgiveness of their sins and reception of eternal life. It is God "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (I Timothy 2:4). God, in his great mercy towards mankind, has provided to mankind an advocate before His heavenly throne, Jesus Christ, who intercedes on behalf of the Christian before the Father, and who shed His blood to free lost and sinful men and women from the wrath of God against sin. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (I John 2:1-2) These verses illustrate the position and activity of Christ as both Saviour and Advocate. He is the propitiation for our sins, meaning that the shedding of His sinless blood in sacrifice for us satisfied the demands of God's wrath against sin, and that this act of grace was performed for the whole world, for every man, woman, and child who has lived and ever will live. Likewise, He is the advocate, the one who stands before the throne of the Father and pleads His own righteousness on behalf of those who have trusted in Him as Saviour, if we sin.

This contrasts with the Quranic Allah, who hates sinners and has made no provision for their reconciliation to him. "..and Allah loveth not those that do wrong." (Surah 3:140) - "Contend not on behalf of such as betray their own souls; for Allah loveth not one given to perfidy and sin." (Surah 4:107) - "Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way- Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allah is easy." (Surah 4:168-169) - "And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious." (Surah 5:49) - "The Unbelievers will be addressed: "Greater was the aversion of Allah to you than (is) your aversion to yourselves, seeing that ye were called to the Faith and ye used to refuse." (Surah 40:10) As presented in the Qur'an, Allah is a vindictive deity who desires to afflict sinners, not save them. This understanding of Allah seems to be the orthodox Islamic position. Note the passage below:

"This is the covenant which you make with Allah as soon as you recite La ilaha illallah, and in doing so you make the whole world your witness. If you violate this covenant, your hand and feet, the minutest hair on your body and every particle of the earth and of the heaven before which you made that false declaration, will render evidence against you in the court of Allah where you will be in the dock in such a helpless condition that not a single defence witness will be available to you. No Advocate or Barrister will be there to plead your case...." 3

As demonstrated here, breaking the covenant made with Allah, which is the covenant to live and abide by Islamic law and practice, will result in being hauled before the court of Allah completely defenceless, with no hope of ever being either redeemed from your sin or of being saved from the wrath of Allah. Of course, the way in which this covenant is broken is by apostatising from Islam, not by committing some other gross or negligent personal sin. Indeed, the main thrust of the Quranic verses mentioned above seems to be the condemnation of those who "betray their own soul" and who were "called to the faith" and refused, essentially choosing to reject Islam."

It is apparent, then, that we know God, or any Being claiming to be God, by His revealed words and actions. A statement of the obvious, really, because since God is Spirit He has no physical attributes by which He can be recognised. A Creator God who IS truth, cannot simultaneously hold diametrically opposing positions - it is impossible because He would be denying Himself. So, either God loves sinners and desires that all come to Him through Christ, or He hates sinners and desires to punish them and not to save them. There are many other fundamental character differences between the God revealed in the Bible and Allah as revealed in the Koran, such that it is impossible for them to be one and the same God. Since both cannot be the true Creator God we are left with a choice. If the Biblical God is the one true God, then Allah cannot be, and vice versa. And the one that is NOT the true God, is by default a lie, an imagination of the human heart seeded by Satan. So what has this to do with the OP?

If by believing in evolution we in any way add to or take from the revealed words and actions of the God revealed in the Bible, it is an attempt to change the character of God, and since this is impossible, we end up constructing and worshipping a different god after our own imagination. It is a different character who would create a perfect human being designed to live forever, than a character who would put in motion a process where death (extinction) of the less well adapted was the creative power. Speaking for myself, there is no circumstance in which I would worship a God who used the evolutionary process to cause the existence of man. Employing "nature red in tooth and claw" is not my idea of a loving and merciful and holy and just and righteous God. If evolution is true, then God is not, as far as I am concerned. And I am not talking about adaptation within kinds, which is a merciful feature that God designed into His Creation to allow quick adaptation to extreme environmental changes, such as those that occurred post flood. I am speaking of evolution from simple organism, via other life forms, to man over millions upon millions of years.

I think that we should be very careful that we do not attempt to add to or take from the character of God as revealed by His words and actions recorded in the Bible, because if we do, we are in danger of inventing a god after our own imagination, and imaginary gods cannot save, any more than Allah can. Is this not what Paul was saying in Romans 1:23 ? ".....and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image....." and "..... who exchanged the truth of God for a lie..." And since God IS truth, it would not be inaccurate to read the verse thus: ".....and exchanged God for a lie..."