methinkshe Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 14, 2007 Boy, I can see smoke coming out of some ears here! Look, all are equal in G-d's eyes; none is greater than the other. I take issue with this statement of yours: [A]lthough male and female are of equal worth in God's eyes, they differ in terms of their responsibilities before God and therefore have been appointed different degrees of authority. Equal is equal; there cannot be degrees of equality! In the Kingdom we all have the exact same standing and the exact same responsibilities. On earth, as a demonstration of the orderliness of the Kingdom, there has to be a hierarchy of authority. Having said that, the best marriages are cannot dictatorships. G-d is a benevolent Dictator because He is omniscient. We aren't--not men and not women--therefore we need each other to make decisions. Men and women think differently but together they for a complete person. It's ridiculous to force a milquetoast-man into being the single decision maker! Similarly, it's crazy to have a bully forcing his way or the highway on his family. But the reverse is also true; a shrew makes a lousy leader. No, I would say that the best marriages are a co-operative effort between husband and wife; none makes a decision without discussing it with the other. Ultimately, I think the husband--if he is able mentally and emotionally--should make the decision after consulting his wife. If he's a total boob, and don't laugh, boob-like husbands are all over the place, he should have humility to let his wife work with him. In any partnership, business or personal, there has to be a partner who takes the final responsibility for making decisions, and if that partner has to shoulder the responsibility then he must also have the authority to make that decision. No-one is arguing for a repressive male domination, just a final order of authority FOLLOWING discussion. It is only when wives, having contributed to the dicussion, can then dump the responsibility /authority firmly in the lap of their husband, that they are free to fully express their femininity. BTW we are not talking about essential doctrine in this instance but rather sound advice for the good administration of a church and family. I believe that God's order is ALWAYS best, however much modern society rails against it. If (and He is) God is unchanging, then so are His precepts and His advice for the better ordering of society in general, and the family in particular. In Jesus Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2007 This reminds me of the George Orwell book "Animal Farm", in which the pigs kept changing the laws over time. It started out, "All animals are created equal," but over time it became, "All animals are created equal, but some are created more equal than others." As pointed out, you are either equal, or you are not equal. You can't have it both ways. It is necessary first to understand what is meant by equal. It cannot mean "the same as" because all men are not the same - never mind women. In boxing, for instance, we have heavyweight and lightweight classes. Bring women into the equation, and we have seperate sporting events for men and women. So there is obviously an inequality between men and women at a physical level. Which is why I said that men and women are equal in terms of worth. Interestingly, the law treats mean and women differently, recognising that women are subject to different outward influences than men, such as PMT. So "equality" has to be defined before it can be properly discussed. I would define it in terms of "intrinsic worth" but maybe others have a better idea. In Jesus Ruth agreed. People get uptight when they hear "roles" and get into this "men are dominant view." The bible doesn't say "women be a maid...." Men and women are supposed to be like two pieces of the puzzle that lock together. When parents raise a boy or girl they should raise them as a piece of the puzzle so they can lock with their spouse. This "method" goes bad when (for example) parents raise their daughter as a "female piece" of the puzzle then she goes and marries someone who wants nothing to do with the Word of God. You then have two totally different mindsets. You have a marriage that has one person with the Word of God and the other is lost. You really don't have a team. The marriage looks like a team but it's not. The team (husband and wife) is supposed to be led by God's Word as the coach. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2007 At work, I have a boss. She is a wonderful lady who is very supportive and easy to talk to. She listens to what I have to say, and values my input. But she has the authority to make decisions, and has the final say. She also has the responsibility to see that I have everything I need to do my job well, and to make certain the department runs smoothly. We are a team. She is not intrinsically better than I am as a person. We are equally valuable as human beings. She simply has a different role in the company. Peace, Fiosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2007 It is necessary first to understand what is meant by equal. It cannot mean "the same as" because all men are not the same - never mind women. In boxing, for instance, we have heavyweight and lightweight classes. Bring women into the equation, and we have seperate sporting events for men and women. So there is obviously an inequality between men and women at a physical level. Which is why I said that men and women are equal in terms of worth. Interestingly, the law treats mean and women differently, recognising that women are subject to different outward influences than men, such as PMT. So "equality" has to be defined before it can be properly discussed. I would define it in terms of "intrinsic worth" but maybe others have a better idea. In Jesus Ruth Shalom Ruth, You have it according to the Scriptures. We (women) are to submit to our husbands, the way that the church submits to Jesus. That doesn't mean we aren't equal in His sight for salvation and gifts, but we have different ROLES and the authority is set up in the home this way: Jesus Husband Wife Children If the wife usurps her husbands' authority and takes on his role, she is not submitting to G-d's plan of authority. Those that want to argue against it should really pray about these verses, for G-d makes it very clear: Ephesians 5 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2007 This reminds me of the George Orwell book "Animal Farm", in which the pigs kept changing the laws over time. It started out, "All animals are created equal," but over time it became, "All animals are created equal, but some are created more equal than others." As pointed out, you are either equal, or you are not equal. You can't have it both ways. It is necessary first to understand what is meant by equal. It cannot mean "the same as" because all men are not the same - never mind women. In boxing, for instance, we have heavyweight and lightweight classes. Bring women into the equation, and we have seperate sporting events for men and women. So there is obviously an inequality between men and women at a physical level. Which is why I said that men and women are equal in terms of worth. Interestingly, the law treats mean and women differently, recognising that women are subject to different outward influences than men, such as PMT. So "equality" has to be defined before it can be properly discussed. I would define it in terms of "intrinsic worth" but maybe others have a better idea. In Jesus Ruth agreed. People get uptight when they hear "roles" and get into this "men are dominant view." The bible doesn't say "women be a maid...." Men and women are supposed to be like two pieces of the puzzle that lock together. When parents raise a boy or girl they should raise them as a piece of the puzzle so they can lock with their spouse. This "method" goes bad when (for example) parents raise their daughter as a "female piece" of the puzzle then she goes and marries someone who wants nothing to do with the Word of God. You then have two totally different mindsets. You have a marriage that has one person with the Word of God and the other is lost. You really don't have a team. The marriage looks like a team but it's not. The team (husband and wife) is supposed to be led by God's Word as the coach. ... 3xR0c|<stAr let me clarify something and I may get some backlash. well...maybe not. the two puzzle pieces can be a little decieving so maybe i shouldnt of given that example but men have a responsibility. they are supposed to be in the Word of God and "washing their wives" with the Word. God expects that and holds the man accountable to that. it's tough nowadays with looks being the main reason to say someone is a good man. same goes for females. Looks go away with time but constant study of God's word makes you stronger with time. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 14, 2007 This reminds me of the George Orwell book "Animal Farm", in which the pigs kept changing the laws over time. It started out, "All animals are created equal," but over time it became, "All animals are created equal, but some are created more equal than others." As pointed out, you are either equal, or you are not equal. You can't have it both ways. It is necessary first to understand what is meant by equal. It cannot mean "the same as" because all men are not the same - never mind women. In boxing, for instance, we have heavyweight and lightweight classes. Bring women into the equation, and we have seperate sporting events for men and women. So there is obviously an inequality between men and women at a physical level. Which is why I said that men and women are equal in terms of worth. Interestingly, the law treats mean and women differently, recognising that women are subject to different outward influences than men, such as PMT. So "equality" has to be defined before it can be properly discussed. I would define it in terms of "intrinsic worth" but maybe others have a better idea. In Jesus Ruth agreed. People get uptight when they hear "roles" and get into this "men are dominant view." The bible doesn't say "women be a maid...." Men and women are supposed to be like two pieces of the puzzle that lock together. When parents raise a boy or girl they should raise them as a piece of the puzzle so they can lock with their spouse. This "method" goes bad when (for example) parents raise their daughter as a "female piece" of the puzzle then she goes and marries someone who wants nothing to do with the Word of God. You then have two totally different mindsets. You have a marriage that has one person with the Word of God and the other is lost. You really don't have a team. The marriage looks like a team but it's not. The team (husband and wife) is supposed to be led by God's Word as the coach. ... 3xR0c|<stAr let me clarify something and I may get some backlash. well...maybe not. the two puzzle pieces can be a little decieving so maybe i shouldnt of given that example but men have a responsibility. they are supposed to be in the Word of God and "washing their wives" with the Word. God expects that and holds the man accountable to that. it's tough nowadays with looks being the main reason to say someone is a good man. same goes for females. Looks go away with time but constant study of God's word makes you stronger with time. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Yes, exrock, I do think you have expressed well God's order of authority and responsibility and thus accountability. And, as you rightly observe, it IS tough these days. And the study of God's Word DOES make us stronger. Rock on....keep studying the Word.... In Jesus RuthK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
methinkshe Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 679 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/02/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 14, 2007 (edited) It is necessary first to understand what is meant by equal. It cannot mean "the same as" because all men are not the same - never mind women. In boxing, for instance, we have heavyweight and lightweight classes. Bring women into the equation, and we have seperate sporting events for men and women. So there is obviously an inequality between men and women at a physical level. Which is why I said that men and women are equal in terms of worth. Interestingly, the law treats mean and women differently, recognising that women are subject to different outward influences than men, such as PMT. So "equality" has to be defined before it can be properly discussed. I would define it in terms of "intrinsic worth" but maybe others have a better idea. In Jesus Ruth Shalom Ruth, You have it according to the Scriptures. We (women) are to submit to our husbands, the way that the church submits to the Jesus. That doesn't mean we aren't equal in His sight for salvation and gifts, but we have different ROLES and the authority is set up in the home this way: Jesus Husband Wife Children If the wife usurps her husbands' authority and takes on his role, she is not submitting to G-d's plan of authority. Those that want to argue against it should really pray about these verses, for G-d makes it very clear: Ephesians 5 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Dear Sisiter in Christ, I so appreciate your affirmation. We live in perilous times and it is good that the church of Jesus encourages its individual members. I so appreciate your encouragement and affirmation of the Word. Blessings in Jesus Ruth Edited May 14, 2007 by methinkshe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoMike Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/27/1964 Share Posted May 14, 2007 I would say that feminism is definitely anti-Christ. But the repressing of women is just as anti-Christ. I think both exrockstar and my wife make great points. I think that in years past Christian men basically ran rough-shod over their wives, using Bible verses taken out of context to "be the king of their castle." I would say that in recent years, the exaggerated position of women has taken its toll on marriages. There is a Divine order to things, without regard to "curses" in Genesis. In Christ, the curses are negated. But we still have to live this life, in the flesh, and we have to respect the various gifts and talents each partner brings into a marriage while acknowledging this Divine order. As a general principle, it is clear the primary responsibility of the marriage in the spiritual realm falls on the husband's shoulders; he is to be "high priest" of his family. On the practical level, though, I am man enough to say I don't have a clue about certain things, like finances, for example. God has put me together with woman who manages finances like a pro. Why would I want to take charge of something she does so much better? On the other hand, there are some things (can't think of any off hand right now...) that I do better than Marnie, and so I have charge of those things. Somebody way back mentioned the word "partnership." At it's most basic level, a marriage is a partnership; it is a financial partnership, a business partnership, an emotional partnership, a sexual partnership and a spiritual partnership. Both partners have a responsibility to ensure the smooth operation of that partnership throughout the life of that partnership. A dysfunctional marriage (partnership) is when one partner abdicates their responsibility totally and sits back and allows the other partner to "run" things as they see fit. That's unfair and selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted May 14, 2007 Boy, I can see smoke coming out of some ears here! Look, all are equal in G-d's eyes; none is greater than the other. I take issue with this statement of yours: [A]lthough male and female are of equal worth in God's eyes, they differ in terms of their responsibilities before God and therefore have been appointed different degrees of authority. Equal is equal; there cannot be degrees of equality! In the Kingdom we all have the exact same standing and the exact same responsibilities. On earth, as a demonstration of the orderliness of the Kingdom, there has to be a hierarchy of authority. Having said that, the best marriages are cannot dictatorships. G-d is a benevolent Dictator because He is omniscient. We aren't--not men and not women--therefore we need each other to make decisions. Men and women think differently but together they for a complete person. It's ridiculous to force a milquetoast-man into being the single decision maker! Similarly, it's crazy to have a bully forcing his way or the highway on his family. But the reverse is also true; a shrew makes a lousy leader. No, I would say that the best marriages are a co-operative effort between husband and wife; none makes a decision without discussing it with the other. Ultimately, I think the husband--if he is able mentally and emotionally--should make the decision after consulting his wife. If he's a total boob, and don't laugh, boob-like husbands are all over the place, he should have humility to let his wife work with him. Right on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted May 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 14, 2007 At work, I have a boss. She is a wonderful lady who is very supportive and easy to talk to. She listens to what I have to say, and values my input. But she has the authority to make decisions, and has the final say. She also has the responsibility to see that I have everything I need to do my job well, and to make certain the department runs smoothly. We are a team. She is not intrinsically better than I am as a person. We are equally valuable as human beings. She simply has a different role in the company. Peace, Fiosh Unfortunately, in our society people equate authority/power with "equality." If someone has more authority than we do, somehow we view that as being above us. This is not true. People can have more authority than others, but still be equal with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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